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A day trip to Midden-Zeeland EHMZ

I have been crossing Belgium airspace VFR many times before I started flying IFR and always was able to fly from The Netherlands straight to France via NIK (Nicky) then CIV or visa versa in a more or less straight line VFR at FL90 of FL100. No problem at all.

EDLE, Netherlands

Alex_ wrote:

Seems like a really well organised airport a bit like Texel.

Yes, I was getting Texel vibes but that could’ve been just because they’re both in the same country! I was amazed when I walked into the tower to find two guys in there that looked younger than me (and I can’t even grow a beard!). Of course, they were professional nonetheless.

AeroPlus wrote:

I have been crossing Belgium airspace VFR many times before I started flying IFR and always was able to fly from The Netherlands straight to France via NIK (Nicky) then CIV or visa versa in a more or less straight line VFR at FL90 of FL100. No problem at all.

So that makes four people in this thread alone that have flown VFR above 4500 in Belgium. It’s possible that my RT wasn’t up to scratch. Both Belga Radar and Brussels Information had a very distracting level of interference so I struggled to understand when I first checked in. I told him his readability was 3 and asked him to say again on a few occasions. Maybe that wasn’t inspiring confidence in me on his part.

I forgot to mention that when paying my landing fee in EHMZ they gave me a coffee shop style loyalty card. Every full stop landing you make you get a stamp and the 10th is free. As much as I like that place, I don’t think I’ll be there often enough to redeem even half the offer! The free branded pen was welcome though.

EDLN/EDLF, Germany

lionel wrote:

Frankfurt TMA is class D/C, but you will rarely get a clearance to enter it VFR for transit; similarly for many “big big airport” TMAs and CTRs

As Peter already wrote you have the best chances to cross the Frankfurt TMA high and it depends also on the active runways. In my experience the chances to get a clearance above FL140 are about 50% (I did that several times) and I don’t think that the rate is better IFR. After a few frequency changes ATC often isn’t even aware that you are VFR. They even refused to release us for resuming own navigation after descending below airspace C south of Frankfurt. @Patrick can confirm

That said, you don’t have a guarantee for a clearance – that goes without saying.

EDLE

europaxs wrote:

(….) the best chances to cross the Frankfurt TMA high (…) the chances to get a clearance above FL140 are about 50%

Pedantically, that’s flying above the TMA, not cross it :)

ELLX

NinerEchoPapa wrote:

I was then handed over to Belga Radar who cleared me in to their airspace then a few minutes later told me VFR flight in Belgium is prohibited above 4500ft. This was news to me (and apparently several other people in EHMZ). Must try harder with reading the AIP’s…

That’s not true, you can fly VFR above 4500ft in Belgium (why should it not be allowed?). I have done it many many times.

About TMA crossings on information frequencies, this is also very common in Belgium. As Brussels Departure is sometimes very busy they prefer you to contact Bru Info and ask if they can coordinate with departure (the controlles sit next to each other). After your request they will come back to you and tell you you can cross the TMA, in some cases you might be asked to change to the departure frequency but they will have your details from the info controller, which saves a lot of time on the frequency.

Last Edited by jvdo at 01 Oct 08:04
EBMO, EBKT

I recently flew from France to Germany via Belgium VFR, and upon checking in with Brussels Information telling them my planned routing (ARDEN, DIK, ULKIG maintaining FL95) they told me to contact Belga Radar. When I spoke with them, they sounded confused I would be speaking to them, then gave me a bollocking for being so high and told me to descend to FL45 or below. He specifically said “next time when you arrive in Belgium, you must make sure you’re at or below FL45”. When I got to FL45 he passed me back to Brussels Info.

Last Edited by NicR at 01 Oct 09:47
EGBJ and Firs Farm, United Kingdom

NicR wrote:

He specifically said “next time when you arrive in Belgium, you must make sure you’re at or below FL45”.

When did you call? When you were already in Belgium? Formally, that’s a bit late. Since class C starts at A045 (not FL045), a “100% prudent” planning in VFR is starting asking for clearance far enough in advance that if denied, you can descend below controlled airspace. It sounds nut, but isn’t that much, if you haven’t got many different airspaces in quick succession. In my experience, if you do have many different airspaces in quick succession, ATC will coordinate with all of them anyway.

In your example, you would have needed to descend about 5000ft (plus/minus the QNH/standard pressure difference); planning on 500ft/min (standard on a non-pressurised piston?) that is 10 minutes in advance. More than the “standard” 2 min they teach in PPL theory, but doesn’t sound crazy to me. In the standard 2 minutes, you can easily spend 30s waiting for other exchanges on the frequency to finish, then 30s-45s getting info across (VFR, routing, POB, departure, destination, aircraft type and whatnot they will be asking) and then time is short, easier to say no for ATC, even with goodwill. Calling earlier, they may say no (then you descend or reroute), say yes (you won) or tell you to call them again later; in the latter case you get the result that they know about you, you have already primed them to accept you (you called, they didn’t warn you to descend) and they have had an idea of whether/how you fit in their flows for a few minutes already.

My experience coming from France like you describe (but somewhat more south, as my destination was ELLX), at an even higher level (don’t remember exactly… Something between FL120 and FL200). I was in contact with the French information frequency. Well before the Belgian border, I ask them whether they will coordinate with Belgium or I should call them myself. They are totally confused as what I’m asking. I insist, I have class C airspace XX minutes in front of me, I need a clearance; happy to leave her frequency to ask the responsible ATC unit, happy if she coordinates, just let me know what to do. She replies she doesn’t usually do that, but will call me back. On call back “Brussels says to call them YY minutes before the border”. Then everything was smooth.

When I’m already in controlled airspace, when I’m a few minutes from exit, I ask the unit whether they will coordinate with the next sector. Usually in France the answer is that they already did. And in “any country” I flew VFR, they usually coordinate at the point I ask. Actually, I rather got a bollocking from Liège Approach when I called them directly from within Maastricht TMA approaching their TMA; they told me to ask Beek (Maastricht) to call them. Beek gave me an altitude change so I would be in Brussels airspace rather than Liège :)

jvdo wrote:

About TMA crossings on information frequencies, this is also very common in Belgium.

I’ve had that sometimes in France, too. I get the impression it is more of a “you’ll be in the TMA only a few nautical miles, so let’s not make you change frequency that often” kind of thing. Or “I know my colleague will be grumpy to you because he is now in a 2h hole between arrivals and you are interrupting his ‘nothingness’, so I’ll keep you on my frequency”.

ELLX

lionel wrote:

17
NicR wrote:

In your example, you would have needed to descend about 5000ft (plus/minus the QNH/standard pressure difference); planning on 500ft/min (standard on a non-pressurised piston?) that is 10 minutes in advance. More than the “standard” 2 min they teach in PPL theory

I was taught (and still practice) minimum 5 minutes

EHLE / Lelystad, Netherlands, Netherlands

NicR wrote:

I recently flew from France to Germany via Belgium VFR, and upon checking in with Brussels Information telling them my planned routing (ARDEN, DIK, ULKIG maintaining FL95) they told me to contact Belga Radar. When I spoke with them, they sounded confused I would be speaking to them, then gave me a bollocking for being so high and told me to descend to FL45 or below. He specifically said “next time when you arrive in Belgium, you must make sure you’re at or below FL45”. When I got to FL45 he passed me back to Brussels Info.

What was your exact route? Brussel Info will only ask you to contact Belga Radar when you are planning to cross militairy zones.

EBMO, EBKT

I routed LFAQ ARDEN DIK ULKIG EDFE. I was working Paris Info, then I called Brussels Info 10nm before ARDEN. They initially told me to standby, then called me back after a few minutes, I passed my details including intended routing then they tell me to contact Belga Radar. When I checked in with Belga Radar it was obvious they didn’t have my details on handover from Brussels Info, so after giving them my details they asked why I was speaking to them – I told them Brussels Info had told me to contact them. By this time I had passed ARDEN and was therefore in the Class C but as I had been in contact with both Belgium units all the time I wasn’t too concerned. They then said I couldn’t transit above FL45 so requested an immediate descent, which I complied with. It was after I descended that they said “next time when you arrive in Belgium, you must make sure you’re at or below FL45”.

Maybe I was unlucky, sometimes when you are transferred between units things can fall through the cracks. Or maybe something got lost in translation, I don’t know.

EGBJ and Firs Farm, United Kingdom
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