Menu Sign In Contact FAQ
Banner
Welcome to our forums

Accident in Spain, M20K D-ETFT

They were most certainly VFR. No IFR flightplan in the system, also for the previous flights.

EDFE, EDFZ, KMYF, Germany

Andi wrote:

How do we know they didn’t fly IFR? At least one of them had an IR (AFAIK also current) and doesn’t the cruise altitude rather speak for IFR? And what about the rumour about engine trouble, is this from a valid source?

The flight cruise portion was at a VFR altitude, FL115, east-bound, as recorded in Flightaware24.

3 pilots on-board and at least one was an FI ?

I’m speechless …

Last Edited by Michael at 15 May 08:12
FAA A&P/IA
LFPN

I am not; the vast majority of European instructors rarely venture beyond the circuit and I would bet 99% have never been beyond 100nm radius, either while training or privately.

There is generally regarded to be little or no value in training of cross country flights; within the PPL business it is seen as a bizzare activity engaged in by high income individuals only

I still remember my “cross channel checkout” flight, Shoreham to Le Touquet…

Of course there are exceptions. But still, the training business lives on the wx briefing products that have been used in the training business since for ever: tafs, metars, a few other country-specific things. Not radar / sferics / IR images.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

VFR in central Italy last Saturday

https://www.facebook.com/263158660559836/videos/799029210306109/

Last Edited by AfricanEagle at 15 May 09:07
Happy only when flying
Sabaudia airstrip LISB, Italy

The real cause of the crash is not known. Looking at the vertical profile it may suggest an engine failure or fuel starvation. In any IMC situation with 600 Ft ceilings this would seriously reduce your survive-ability even less in mountainous terrain. The Cirrus has the advantage to pull the chute when the terrain is hostile and things have evolved beyond recovery. VFR IFR does not matter, they were pushing things with fuel reserves it seems. Low fuel, bad weather ahead, hostile terrain, getting thereitis…a lethal cocktail when ignoring all this, the FAA has a checklist for this to assess RISK. Flying is 90% psychology, I am not immune as a human to make mistakes, we just need to learn and self assess better unfortunately its often learned on the job (with fellow pilots who have survived and can transmit the experience) and by doing it yourself……… RIP very sad…

FAA RISK check

The handbook:
RISK

Last Edited by Vref at 15 May 09:40
EBST

@mooneydriver e.a.
Typical VFR into bad weather. Looking for a way through the mountains. Then loss of engine due to possible fuel exhaustion?

Why are you speculating about fuel exhaustion?
The direct distance is only 506 NM and the GS was 180+ Kts with an ET of 3:20 hrs (acc. to Flightradar24).

Last Edited by cessnatraveller at 15 May 11:25

(sorry first I am on my phone only and can not use the standard quotation marks for some reason.)

@jujupilote
Yes I have flown across the Alps and around them. They are beautiful but also treacherous. I have done a statistic and only 30% of the times a VFR crossing to GAFOR D or O standards is possible. Personally I do not plan VFR flights over the Alps anymore ahead of time as in now 8 years I managed exactly 3. All other times the Alps were not fly able.

As someone who has intimate contact with the weather conditions there in my day job I have to clearly say that I am of the opinion that the Alps are no place for anyone without training.

As for ratings, may I remind you that particularly France has many airports where they ask for special intros mostly in the mountains. Obviously the opinion is that PPL training is not enough for these? In the Swiss mountains there are several which are difficult too. That is why Swiss PPL training includes flights to alpine regions. But what preparation would someone have who has never flown above 2000 ft in all his training?

Now obviously there are several ways to do this. Best in my opinion would be to dust off PPL syllabi and add what is necessary for actually going places. In the US this is done more up to date as I understand. IMC training and night is part of the Ppl. Why not in Europe?

Why is it that our forums see new PPLs who ask how to fly a 100NM trip? How do they get a license if they don’t know?

This accident, as many before, shows an appalling lack of flightplanning skills. What to do about it? If I get it right these were 3 pilots from a club on a fly out and still flew into unacceptable conditions? If they had the earlier TAF then so much the more this flight was not seriously plannable.

LSZH(work) LSZF (GA base), Switzerland

Peter,

Exactly. FIs like that are liabilities and often instill a false sense of security in those who take them along as “safety pilots”.

Cessnatraveller: with 3 pob a 252 can carry around 50 USG before going over gross. 3 hours plus climb makes about 40 USG so 10 left at the time of the accident, enough to start the fire. What if it was all in the other tank? Or mostly unusable or mess then we think?

Vref, exactly what it looks like.

If this crew composition of one FI and 2 VFR ppls is true, it would be another example where some people wanted to get some longer flight experience and took a FI for safety who might not have had more experience than themselves going that far. I recall a case like this when a Mooney was lost on take off from a Italian private runway on a fly away like this.

Get there itis might well be a factor too. Club planes need to be home on time or else? How many have died to bring a plane back to base out of fear of cost and retribution?

Last Edited by Mooney_Driver at 15 May 11:41
LSZH(work) LSZF (GA base), Switzerland

@MooneyDriver

If the 3 pilots were not concerned about the bad weather ahead why should they be concerned about their MTOW?

The plane was no club plane but a private one rented from friends who were not on board.
I was told that one of the pilots from Hamburg was a CFI with 3500 hrs, IFR and I think a Citation rating (not sure whether still valid). That could have influenced the attitude of the other two VFR-PPLs not to intervene in case of going VFR into IMC. Still why didn’t he ask for an IFR clearance into Reus?
Many questions – did they use oxygen on that 3h flight at FL115? Will the truth ever be found without a FDR (flight data recorder)?

Last Edited by nobbi at 15 May 12:39
EDxx, Germany
Sign in to add your message

Back to Top