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Air Navigation Services Terminal Charges in Germany

boscomantico wrote:

Well, I have been paying these charges ever since (long before 2010).
Maybe the rate has changed in 2010 or something, but nothing fundamentally.
I remember paying such charges in Germany in the 1980s…

ESKC (Uppsala/Sundbro), Sweden

I feel sympathy for C210_Flyer opinion.

I am surprised German ATC takes fees, let’s hope French ATC won’t learn it !
Maybe it is a typical French behaviour (big taxes, all inclusive but), but I am quite shocked in fact.
In Greece, you feel like you have to pay for the cost their super terminal (built with EU money anyway)
In Germany, GA pilots are supposed to reimburse the cost of ATC. ATC is more useful for CAT than for us (already said in a previous thread)
It’s the same logic : imagine they was no GA fee, would they restrict German airport hours to just the airliners schedule (still like in Greece) ?

Or did you Germans get something in return of this fee (I am looking for a positive way out) ? Like more FIS or radars or …

The approach fee is only for a handful of large German airports with DFS towers and it’s not that much money.

Some smaller airfields charge IFR approach fees to help fund their IFR specific expenses while not making enemies with the dominating VFR-only crows who would object to any fee increase due to IFR related expenses.

C210_Flyer wrote:

By the way they have 3 large maintenance facilities at their airport with about 100 of workers. So its a real money maker for the town to have that airport there. Think of the salaries the extended salaries the employment that is created for the community.

No one that I know, who wants to visit these facilities to get something done, turns somewhere else because of the 4.20€.
Not least because some of the facilities are so expensive that if you go there, you have already proven by (concludent action) not to be a penny pincher.

But yeah – it would be a good idea to have the maintenance shops swallow the fee, as they want the planes to come and visit.
Same as they do for car parks at shopping malls – you buy something and get a refund on parking ;-)

Last Edited by ch.ess at 07 Sep 18:36
...
EDM_, Germany

Jujupilote,

rest aussured: if you really do (as far as that’s possible) an apples to apples comparison, and compare similar airports in type, size, catchment area, services and traffic volume, then you will find out that Germany has the lowest fees of all airports in Europe (together with France, admittedly). All other countries, i.e. the UK, Benelux, Spain, Italy, Croatia, Greece ), Poland, etc. are all more expensive. So don’t despair.

Mainz (EDFZ), Germany

boscomantico wrote:

So don’t despair.

Don’t worry, I am planning my long distance trips for 2018 (Germany until the Baltic, the Alps, Ireland ??).
Another flight trip in the US is tempting too !

Jujupilote wrote:

I am surprised German ATC takes fees,

Just to clarify. German ATC is not involved with the billing. Their only role is that they advise EDMS that there is an aircraft that has an IFR flightplan with them and that EDMS is the destination. It is the airport itself that has instituted an IFR Flightplan fee because they will charge you whether you do an IFR approach or not.

So once the flight plan is activated you will be charged an IFR enroute fee by EDMS. Now understand that is even if you cancel the IFR flightplan after you get above the cloud deck which is over your airport and proceed VFR to the destination which is EDMS. So do you see why I am calling it an enroute IFR fee?

For them to be honest they should change their AIP information fee structure and call it what it really is but not an IFR approach fee. How can you call it an IFR approach when its on a Y plan in an IFR flight plan? By the way the same holds true when you depart on an IFR flight plan they want to charge you there as well for communicating with ATC and once again on your bill is listed as an IFR approach fee.

KHTO, LHTL

C210_Flyer wrote:

How can you call it an IFR approach when its on a Y plan in an IFR flight plan?

EDMS will not charge you the IFR approach fee if you file a Y flight plan. They charge you for an I or Z plan even when you cancel IFR.

Airfields can define their own fee schedule and require approval if they are part of the public infrastructure. On the other hand, EDMS has extremely low fees for flight training while other airfields of that size and relevance don’t do that.

After having introduced the IFR approach fee (in order to increase the revenue without getting too much resistance from the dominating VFR crowd) they realized that pilots started to cancel IFR just to avoid the € 4.20. They had two options: increase it to a higher amount (and have probably even more people cancelling IFR to avoid it) or to charge it when people plan to arrive IFR but choose otherwise. In my view, a reasonable approach.

This ain’t the US of A over here. Different mechanisms at play.

ch.ess wrote:

No one that I know, who wants to visit these facilities to get something done, turns somewhere else because of the 4.20€.

I dont there was ever a time I left there without paying less than 1000Euros between Avionics and Maintenance. Not to mention the fact that when I gas up I usually drop an additional 600 to 800Euros for gas to get back to Hungary. Sometimes I stay over and spend money eith at the airport hotel or in the city. Not forgetting cab rides to and from the train station and airport or hotels. So multiply that out and do you see how beneficial that airport is to the economy? From my of view my beef with them is that they are getting greedy.

Another sore point is that with certain maintenance there is a requirement for flight checks with multiple takeoffs and landings are required. It is very easy to have 5-6 TO and landings to tweak and autopilot for instance. So by the time you add it up you can be charged 100Euros for maintenance flights. Yes Im including the 19% VAT that I would be paying.

ch.ess wrote:

But yeah – it would be a good idea to have the maintenance shops swallow the fee, as they want the planes to come and visit.

I would prefer the city of Straubing swallow the fee. They are the ones most benefiting form the commerce that the airport generates. I do believe the airport should be revenue neutral with sufficient reserves for needed maintenance and upgrades but that is really not the topic of conversation here. If they just charge the M facilities they will just turn around and charge the customer.

I think the M facilities are charging a reasonable fee for their work. It the airport that seems unreasonable with the way they charge.

KHTO, LHTL

achimha wrote:

EDMS has extremely low fees for flight training while other airfields of that size and relevance don’t do that.

What are you guys thick? Its not about the amount of the fee. How many times do I have to say that. But you keep getting around to discussing that as if that was the issue. EDMA has a higher landing fee and I believe and IFR Approach fee I still go there and pay my bill. By the way the cost of their ILS is SIGNIFICANTLY higher that a GPS approach which they also have yet that is not reflected in their IFR Approach fee at least not when you compare it to EDMS.

achimha wrote:

EDMS will not charge you the IFR approach fee if you file a Y flight plan.

Well someone better tell them because I have been charged. I have also been told in person that they will charge that “approach fee” if I file IFR in or out Y plan Z plan makes no difference as long as I have an IFR flightplan in the system with Brussels.

Lets see next time I will file a Y plan and see what developsperhaps theyve come to their senses. But seriously how can you charge someone an IFR enroute fee when they cancel it two countries over and land as a VFR flight? It still not answered

achimha wrote:

This ain’t the US of A over here. Different mechanisms at play.

And with that attitude it never will be.

But Yeah your right its greed. Look at your Fraport friends or the other German outfit who runs LHBP. Before they took over LHBP it was reasonable to land there. I was told when I asked why GA is excluded with these high fees, even though they actually have 2 airports rolled into one, and way below capacity, The answer was “We dont want you (GA) here.”

KHTO, LHTL
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