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Cheap airplanes to buy, own and fly thread

There are significant savings to be made if you operate a uniform fleet. The smarter people buy all they can from the US, directly, not from Aircraft Spruce btw, PMA parts to the maximum extent, and being able to buy in bulk helps.

Consumables (these are mostly filters) should cost almost nothing, however.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Yes, for schools most of cheap fleets to run and maintain of are 5 Cessna & 1 Piper or 5 Piper & 1 Cessna where the 1 is private owned with high insurance excess/P1 requirements

ESSEX, United Kingdom

mh wrote:

Hehe, I have never before heard someone call a Rallye a “higher performing plane” :-)

Depends on how you define performance, the climb rate and climb angle of the higher powered variants must be pretty good Especially when compared with a 65-HP Aeronca Chief.

I’d enjoy a Rallye if one came my way. My approach has always been to fly something a bit different and save money in doing so: when your stuff is different, even if modest, you meet more knowledgeable, resourceful people and that completely changes ownership. Anyway, I know a pair of guys on the US east coast have two Rallyes, I think one is actually a 90s Koliber, and they seem to have a good time with them. If they have lunch at the same place it’s an instant regional type fly-in!

Last Edited by Silvaire at 11 Feb 01:29

LeSving wrote:

A Cub, Pa-18, is Annex I however, and vintage even though “full” national CofA. Such an aircraft can fly freely in Europe under the new ECAC recommendation that almost nobody has recognized yet, hence experimental is better.

The ECAC recommendation is about PtF aircraft. A PA18 with an ICAO-compliant national CofA can fly anywhere in Europe — or indeed the world — without any special permits or agreements.

ESKC (Uppsala/Sundbro), Sweden

What is a PtF aircraft? If you didn’t know, there is a new ECAC recommendation for vintage aircraft as defined in Annex I.

LeSving wrote:

What is a PtF aircraft? If you didn’t know, there is a new ECAC recommendation for vintage aircraft as defined in Annex I.

PtF = “Permit to Fly”, which is what the ECAC recommendation you linked to talks about – not aircraft with a CofA.

ESKC (Uppsala/Sundbro), Sweden

Airborne_Again wrote:

which is what the ECAC recommendation you linked to talks about – not aircraft with a CofA.

From here

Recommends that
Member States allow to fly in their country without any restrictions, other than those
stated in the certificate of airworthiness or “permit to fly” issued by another Member
State, historical aircraft originally factory-manufactured and previously holding an ICAO
compliant Certificate of Airworthiness and subsequently operated under national rules
through a National Restricted Permit to Fly or National Restricted Certificate of
Airworthines, and falling under EU Regulation (EC) No 216/2008, Annex II, Article a(i).
The present Recommendation applies only to aircraft of maximum take-off weight of less
than 5 700 Kg and operated in non-commercial flights. ECAC Member States retain the
right to establish the maximum duration of operations of these aircraft in their own
territory.

Of course I know what PtF is it’s just annoying. It’s a British term used in a British regime of operating non certified aircraft. Seldom used elsewhere since a PtF is way too restrictive. The norm is a CofA.

The first document you linked to didn’t mention national CofA’s only PtF’s. I see now that the second document does mention restricted CofA. But it is still the case that an aircraft with an ICAO-compliant CofA doesn’t need any permissions.

Last Edited by Airborne_Again at 12 Feb 07:28
ESKC (Uppsala/Sundbro), Sweden

It’s the same document. But you are right about ICAO of course. I also think maybe I mixed together this thread with another thread.

But PtF is very far away from being the same as CofA. A CofA means that the aircraft has a certificate saying it is airworthy. A PtF means the aircraft is not airworthy, but is permitted to fly on certain terms in a limited time. A CofA has nothing to do with the aircraft being certified, that’s only the special case of ICAO compliant CofA.

A CofA means that the aircraft has a certificate saying it is airworthy. A PtF means the aircraft is not airworthy, but is permitted to fly on certain terms in a limited time. A CofA has nothing to do with the aircraft being certified, that’s only the special case of ICAO compliant CofA.

It is more specific.

An ICAO CofA means the aircraft has met various requirements for performance, controllability, crashworthiness, stall behaviour etc etc, and is built with components which have followed the various processes. Some of this can be regarded as overkill for light GA but that’s a different debate. As the quid pro quo for compliance with this process, the pilot gets worldwide flying privileges (in the civilised world, at least) and, subject to additional requirements, can carry paying passengers who are assumed to have a greater expectation of safety.

If an aircraft doesn’t have an ICAO CofA it doesn’t mean it is any less safe etc. It firstly means the manufacturer has not submitted it for certification / not built it with components which have followed the required route. It could also mean it is a pile of dangerous junk. Or anything in between… There is potential for a lower operating cost, for the realisation of performance characteristics which are not certifiable, for the usage of components which are not certified, etc, and the quid pro quo for non compliance with this process, the pilot doesn’t get worldwide flying privileges, and the other stuff.

I think a lot of the confusion is that in some countries an uncertified aircraft still gets a “certificate” and some people then call it “certified”. It is really a “permit to fly” within specified airspace and subject to specified conditions.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom
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