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Buying my first plane

Your mission profile sounds similar to mine. I had a reasonable, IFR equipped PA28-180, but after a couple of years changed it for a turbo arrow, and after a couple more for a light twin. I now have the right aircraft. I suspect the Archer will not satisfy your needs for long.

EGCJ, United Kingdom

@ Neal do let me know when you are around in Mallorca and we can get together at LESB for a flight or at least some airplane talk!

Antonio
LESB, Spain

If you are getting a good deal on an Archer II then buy it. If you don’t buy it PM me the details

Buying, Selling, Flying
EISG, Ireland

Neal,

Do I understand you correctly, you are getting this plane with a new com and audiopanel installed for 24k Eurosˋ?

If so, it is a valid candidate for VFR. Actually, that is quite nice for that. You can add and Ipad and fly around Switzerland and certainly around mainland Europe and have fun. VFR.

For IFR, you will face an upgrade which will set you back a multiple figure of this. I would strongly consider that you get an offer for the upgrade by one of the companies who do them in Switzerland and possible Germany. In order to get this plane IFR so that it makes sense, you need at least a WAAS GPS, realistically and in this day and age a GTN or Avidyne box, you will need to add a DME, a 2nd complete NAV-COM and you will need to upgrade the AP to 2 axis with something like a S-Tec PSS60. Additonally to that Iˆd recommend an Aspen EFD1000 which will give you a HSI and GPSS at a relatively low price. BUT, this upgrade in my experience in Switzerland will set you back near 100 k CHF at the very least, rather 120-130k. And needless to say, with that in mind, you can afford something a lot more potent for travelling which ha all this already installed. I may be pessimistic but that are the prices Iˆve seen for installations like this.

Then you say you want to fly to Mallorca. Sorry, for me the PA28 is not the plane to do that on a regular basis as it means very long overwater legs on one engine. Also the Archer II is not really the IFR platform I would recommend, too slow, not enough range and so on.

IFR with that route in mind, I personally would favour a twin or if you are comfortable flying over water single engine, then at least a faster and more capable IFR plane such as an Arrow III or later, Mooney 201 or TB20 and even then you are restricted to nice weather as none of those can handle icing. For the money involved to gettng this plane IFR, you can even afford a Seneca II or another light twin which would make a proper overwater plane.

Iˆve seen too many stories of financially very attractive first planes which ended up resold or hangar queens because of disappointment setting in seeing that it was wrong for the mission, but this one really tops most Iˆve seen. So VFR, yes absolutely, IFR, it will be a total waste of money.

just as one example I found on the quick in Switzerland of a nice upgraded IFR plane, look at this one:

http://www.planecheck.com?ent=da&id=43101 local copy

well equipped, low engine hours, 150 kts. Again, you need to know if you want to fly overwater on one engine, but imho much better equipped for what you want to do than a Cherokee will ever be.

If you tell me what your budget for a well equipped IFR plane is, I can keep my eyes open.

Last Edited by Mooney_Driver at 14 Mar 01:34
LSZH(work) LSZF (GA base), Switzerland

the PA28 is not the plane to do that on a regular basis as it means very long overwater legs on one engine

Many would disagree.

Countless UK pilots do this routinely when crossing the Channel.

Of course a twin is better because it has a spare engine but it brings whole new dimensions e.g. ME rating, the need for a lot more currency to be safe (assymetric flight issues at low speed), and even hangarage is a much bigger hassle because the plane is, ahem, a lot bigger across the wingtips. And, unless you like “old wrecks” and know how to sort them out, the choice of planes is a DA42 or a DA42

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

For IFR, you will face an upgrade which will set you back a multiple figure of this. I would strongly consider that you get an offer for the upgrade by one of the companies who do them in Switzerland and possible Germany. In order to get this plane IFR so that it makes sense, you need at least a WAAS GPS, realistically and in this day and age a GTN or Avidyne box, you will need to add a DME, a 2nd complete NAV-COM and you will need to upgrade the AP to 2 axis with something like a S-Tec PSS60. Additonally to that Iˆd recommend an Aspen EFD1000 which will give you a HSI and GPSS at a relatively low price. BUT, this upgrade in my experience in Switzerland will set you back near 100 k CHF at the very least, rather 120-130k.

Why??

For light IFR you need 8.33, PBN/B2 IFR GPS (no EGNOS to be more precise) and Mode S. Spending €130k on an SEP on an avionics upgrade is fiscal insanity.

Oxford (EGTK), United Kingdom

Peter wrote:

Countless UK pilots do this routinely when crossing the Channel.

The channel being some 40 NM at the closest point whereas the IFR track from Switzerland to Mallorca has a 250 NM overwater leg? LSPG to LESB is aound 550 NM direct via a very crude IFR planning the route goes via MTG and LUMAS to POS. That for a PA28 is 2 hours 30 over open water. Obviously you can track all the way to Valencia and Ibiza, but then it’s a 800 NM trip. In a PA28 that means 2 landings at least (ok, one is needed anyway due to Mallorca being no customs for GA unless one pais half the price of the airplane at LEPA) but even then, with a house there I’d say you need something which can do the trip if not non-stop then with one landing and IFR at a safe altitude. To do a 250 NM overwater leg regularly year round, I’d again say for the budget involved a light twin is the best solution, as every one of those can limp on one engine in 4000 ft over a 125 NM back to a suitable alternate.

Then, Son Bonnet is for GA for all practical purposes an isolated destination as landing on any of the Balearic alternates is financial disaster. That means, the closest GA alternates which allow a landing which will not bancrupt you are on the Spanish mainland. (Not sure what the status of the old airport of Menorca is, if that one is open to GA then it might be a variant.

In any case, I would not even think of going to the Baleares regularly with anything which has less than say 800-900 NM IFR range and at least 150 kt TAS for IFR. Whereas, the operative word is regularly. Once or twice, this can be fun, but several times a year I bet the OP will tire out of his 110 kt airplane very fast and if not then the unfortunate soul who should fly along.

For me, a PA28 is a nice VFR plane but not an IFR platform in Europe, where also 140 kt approach speeds are required at any larger airport and alternates IFR are often more than 2 hours flying time from the destination in a plane like that.

LSZH(work) LSZF (GA base), Switzerland

Neal wrote:

But availability is my big concern as my wife and me like to travel on short notice (even more when flying VFR) and reserving the plane on thursday afternoon when the meteo is said to be perfect for the weekend is almost impossible

Neal this statement is a slight concern for me. All of us had that mission profile in our capable planes, but in reality that dream of let’s go to the airport, weather poor but we are IFR so therefore……I have planned many IFR trips that had to be cancelled due to multiple (weather) reasons. Generally you can get out of your home field, but weather at your destination is CAT1 Or the opposite is in place. Or on route you have to climb above 25k to clear ICE, but guess what, you cannot fly in known icing.

i would purchase a non project plane, that fits what you and your wife are trying to do, gain lost of experience both VFR/IFR, review, then upgrade airframe accordingly when you have experienced the reality of IFR/VFR mission completion. Peter has lots of stats on this and he may post them. Plenty of previous threads, off topic I know, but it gives additional information on what you may require to achieve the dream.

Fly safe. I want this thing to land l...
EGPF Glasgow

RobertL18C wrote:

For light IFR you need 8.33, PBN/B2 IFR GPS (no EGNOS to be more precise) and Mode S. Spending €130k on an SEP on an avionics upgrade is fiscal insanity.

Yes I know… That is why I am saying this plane is not viable for an IFR upgrade and if so, then certainly not for a first time buyer.

And yes, you are right, one CAN fly IFR like this, but first of all you can not do your CB IR on a plane like this, as it is severely limited in approaches it can do, secondly flying longer IFR trips without an AP is unsafe and a torture. To fly IFR regularly and properly, a 2 axis AP is a must, so is a proper navigational setup with nowadays includes LPV capability and so on. For many approaches (the OP is located in Switzerland where all ILS approaches are ILS/DME Approaches) you need DME. And betting your life on one COM while IFR is reckless, so realistically minimum to fly IFR properly means at the very least:

  • A GNS430W (today rather a GTN or Avidyne box as they are not sooo much more expensive)
  • a 2nd Nav/Com with 8.33 (as you can’t legally use the other one in case the GTN packs up) and a 2nd GP receiver so you can at least fly a raw data approach, better a 2nd GNS.
  • Mode S
  • DME
  • 2 axis AP

Personally I would not fly IFR without a HSI either, so an Aspen is the cheapest solution for that installed. Installing even a used King HSI is more expensive and does not bring a fraction of the capabilities.

Installation cost for a package like this in Switzerland in my experience is at LEAST 35 k Euros and 2-3 months down time. That is without the avionic. It is in practice a total panel rebuild.

Not talking of the OP’s wish for an engine monitor.

If you want to fly IFR, buy an IFR plane. And if you calculate the whole thing out, to get this Archer properly equipped it will end up at a budget of at least 100k including the purchase price (my estimate would be closer to 120-130 k) and still be a 110 kt dog.

For this money even in Switzerland you can get planes much better suited for the profile he indicates. The F Mooney I copied is one example where obviously an owner has undertaken a project pretty much like that, which the price reflects. However, that plane is capable of 150 kts cruise, has about 900 NM range and is ready to go.

50-70 k will buy you a nice Seneca II fully equipped even. Or a similar plane like a Twin Commanche or a Travel Air. The latter are not significantly more expensive to operate than a high performance single but have the safety of the 2nd engine. Even in Switzerland there is a nice Travel Air right now which does not need any avionic upgrade but with one engine needing an overhaul reserve in the next few years for 67k asking which means 55-60 realistic.

http://www.planecheck.com?ent=da&id=43967

local copy

That is a plane which can do Switzerland to Mallorca non-stop (yes I know the customs issue) and then some at some 150 kt and a range of 1200 NM. LPV and all.

LSZH(work) LSZF (GA base), Switzerland

Some very valid points have been raised about flying to/from the Balearics. I feel personally pertained since I have been living with the overwater risk around the Balearic islands since I got my PPL 20 years ago: I am personally based there.

SINGLE/TWIN : Well, the single vs twin discussion has been beaten to death here and elsewhere and it all comes down to personal attitudes on risk management. Both have their associated risks. Personally, if I had a piston twin I would not be able to afford flying it as regularly (currency!) or keep it in such a good condition as our single…then pressurization also becomes an issue since choices are very limited in the piston market: single (P210/PA46) or twin (B58P/PA-31-350P/Aerostar P/P337/C340/414/421) . All of those twins will fall into either and often both of these categories: “old wreck” or “money pit” . For flying IFR at the stupidly high European MEA’ s you need O2 or press.

Then seawater temperature is quite mild on the Med vs the North sea most of the year, so a drysuit is not essential: this makes a big difference in the practicality.

Other than keeping the aircraft in top-shape, oil analysis, bsi’s etc, I also mitigate the risk by ensuring everybody onboard wears full-time lifevests and we carry a liferaft and PLB that the family has been trained on.

SAR coverage around the Balearics is quite good with helo and aircraft based at LEPA 24/7, but for them to be succesful you need to ensure they know your location. I ensure by using Golze (position updated regardless of radar coverage, which can be poor depending on altitude at some areas) sharing the link, and the 406 PLB.

Flying to/from Switzerland we have two options: via BGR (northeast Spain) when the sea is not nice for whatever reason (temperature, waves, daylight…), minimizing exposure or else via MHN-STP. I almost never fly low or VFR over the sea.I rarely do that due to the need to do a stopover for customs.

AIRPORT AVAILABILITY
Yes, @MooneyDriver is right that things have got tough in the last few years: effectively, there is only one usable airport in the Balearic islands with AVGAS: LESB, and that is without customs. LESL is a nice facility and available but there is no AVGAS. Everything else is off-limits for regular use due to airport+handling costs. I would not hesitate to use them as alternates in a real situation (only happened once in 20 years and 1000 hrs ) , but I must admit the 400-800EUR cost can put some unwelcome pressure in decision making. Unlike the British isles, wx is normally good for landing VFR at LESB, so the alternates situation is not so critical.

I agree you need minimum a 140-150KTAS plane for travelling regularly. It makes a big difference on long trips.

Antonio
LESB, Spain
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