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Cessna P210N Advice

For an informed aircraft owner who actively manages the various aspects of his ownership, there is no downside to being on the N-reg.

You don't have to do those stupid VOR radial checks every month

There is a lot of uninformed FUD about problems with N-regs, enough to cause a drop in market prices.

The VOR check takes 30 seconds, in flight...

The 2-yearly altimeter/transponder check is more money, but it's good. Loads of G-regs fly with crap altimeters and transponders which are a few hundred feet off. It's just a pity you need a FAR145 company to do it. It should be doable by an A&P with the test gear.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

I could be wrong (and frequently am!) but I think Mooney Driver's comment about N-reg drivers dumping their aircraft at fire-sale prices was to do with ability to pass an EASA medical, rather than ability to pick up EASA pilot licences. No medical = invalid pilot licence.

Or do you think there is a loophole here because the FAA licence is the one actually being used?

As I understand it, the FAA are far more lenient about certain medical conditions, which ordinarily spell doom in EASA-land. Who knows how many medical refugees are out there?

EGTT, The London FIR

I could be wrong (and frequently am!) but I think Mooney Driver's comment about N-reg drivers dumping their aircraft at fire-sale prices was to do with ability to pass an EASA medical, rather than ability to pick up EASA pilot licences. No medical = invalid pilot licence.

That's a good point, and it comes down to how many pilots went N-reg for medical reasons.

I don't think the numbers are great. I can't off hand think of any common condition where you would get an FAA Class 3 and not a CAA Class 2. I do know there are some...

Also, the national CAAs have offered various concessions - often not exactly openly advertised - to private pilots, where there was obviously no chance of them ending up in an airliner.

For example I know for a fact that you can get the full JAA IR with no colour vision (it is daytime limited) and this was never advertised.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Peter,

What we might see is EASA FCL forcing a lot of people to give up flying altogether, and this will happen disproportionately to N-reg owners because they form the bulk of the IFR capable community. Most of these are men in their 50s or 60s and they will not be too interested in going through the training/testing/FTO/tumble/dryer one more time. I know of several who have sold up totally. It depends how far up the "food chain" you got.

Finners got it right before I had a chance to answer. The EASA medical was a reason for many people to quit JAR/EASA and go FAA. Some have IR's and good airplanes and they know that on April 1st 2014 they will be grounded for ever. They might get an LAPL or so in Europe, but they fly IFR twins and there is no chance that they will get a Class 2 with IR endorsement. So they are grounded, no two ways about it. I have one friend who will as a consequence emigrate to the US this winter and he is lucky that he can. Not many are that free in their decisions, so they loose their licenses. And no, there are not that few, an estimate I have seen is talking of about 10k pilots in Germany alone.

Add to that what you are saying, which is as much a problem, and you get the end result.

I am still talking to aircraft dealers and their take is that at the moment, N-Reg planes in Europe have a huge devaluation due to that. But not only N-Reg. There is a general downturn in the market, which is good for buyers but a nightmare for sellers. I've seen enough recently to make me realize that if I ever were to sell my aircraft, then even though I bought it very cheap and just put an engine overhaul as investment, I would not be able to realize even that. According to MAPA (Mooney Pilots Association) valuation my plane is worth around $60k (€45k), I see absolutely comparable aircraft offered for € 30 k asking, which means the owner will be lucky to get € 20k. I've seen a 200 hour Cirrus SR22 being sold for 150 k CHF (€125k) and a M20J with brand new engine and 3 blade MT prop for 30 k CHF (€ 25k) after being on the market for 3 years. That airplane according to MAPA's valuations would have been near $150 k (€115k). There is a Seneca II for sale here, with both engines equally on condition but in perfect shape and good avionics, which now sells for € 30k and there are no takers. Equally a II but with half time engines and good IFR for € 60k. I recently got to know that someone actually gave away a nicely equipped Cherokee 140 with half time engine and 2 axis AP. Free. Just so he got rid of it.

That is what I call a depression.

LSZH(work) LSZF (GA base), Switzerland

And no, there are not that few, an estimate I have seen is talking of about 10k pilots in Germany alone.

Where does that figure come from? There are very few N registered aircraft left in Germany (compared to 20 years ago), none at all stationed at my home base any more, which really has a lot of resident GA aircraft. For that reason, I already didn't bother to renew my FAA validation when my national license was replaced by a JAR one six or seven years ago.

EDDS - Stuttgart

Mooney Driver, if you hear of any more of those bargains, make sure you let me know!

EGTT, The London FIR

My "feeling" (very anecdotal evidence, if you like) is that only small numbers of UK pilots went N-reg categorically for medical reasons.

A part of the reason is that the UK CAA was reportedly suspicious of people who stopped renewing their medicals but were still seen to be active. There were a few high profile cases of this, where the individual did some middle-finger-up pisstaking of the regs and the CAA grounded him - as they are entitled to do under ICAO (a contracting state has the power to ban its "nationals" (citizens) flying on foreign papers in its airspace). It was rare, though.

And when the NPPL came in, the CAA could not do anything at all because most of the people who went to the NPPL were people who failed the Class 2 medical and they were able to make the move openly (unlike the US Sports Pilot where you must not actually fail any FAA medical; you have to instead anticipate a failure and move beforehand).

A number of people went for the FAA IR because they could not get the JAA audiogram, but there were some routes around that (involving an ICAO CPL or ATPL) and there are some other routes which have opened recently, which your friendly AME, assuming he is at least half competent, can tell you about.

But at the purely PPL level, not many.

But I think many more in Germany did this, and many/most of them are on 61.75 papers. I know that when the 61.75 fallout hit the fan in a big way (last year or two) there was a mad scramble in Germany to get their 61.75 licenses reissued. I won't write details, not least because they are secondhand, but it caused a lot of trouble. Much more than in the UK.

So I suspect Germany has a much bigger N-reg community which is PPL-only. Whether they did it for medical reasons I have no idea. I don't think Germans are less healthy than Brits - probably about the same (the same "food quality", for example).

Also, against all this you have the moving target of Euro CAA medical departments introducing concessions. Stuff is gradually relaxing. There is (I am reliably informed) considerable revenue-protection pressure against this, so little of it is advertised openly. In the EASA MED regs there is some stuff about every case having to be considered individually and this opens the doors... but you need to drive it, and you need an AME willing to help. But then you need to drive any involvement with the medical profession, outside of aviation

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

whatnext

Where does that figure come from?

I seem to remember to have read it in one of the leading German mags when the thing first came up. Must be about 2-3 years ago. I never was FAA (ok, had a validation many moons ago but never used it) so I did not particularly push the issue. That figure has however been quoted back to me several times recently by frustrated tradesmen, but for all of Europe. I think the truth is probably in between, there was a massive exodus in France and Germany for a while, there are still many n-regs around here.

The problem anyhow are not so much the airframes but the people. If there are no pilots to fly them, their value drops all the same. Likewise, I have seen a lot of very appealing airframes on N-Reg which can't be put on EASA due to the nice STC's, which is why they are N-Reg in the first place. So again they become unsellable in Europe. Would we finally get a stop on these matters, things would change drastically but I am not really optimistic on that accord.

Finners,

the Senecas (II with engines on condition) and (II with mid life engines) are still on planecheck, so is the Mooney C. The Mooney 201 I heard of only after it happened, otherwise I'd have bought it myself! Likewise the PA28, that one bugged me because I had looked at it before and liked it. I think it would have made a very nice plane to resell or even to put up for charter cheap.

Peter,

Whether they did it for medical reasons I have no idea. I don't think Germans are less healthy than Brits - probably about the same (the same "food quality", for example).

What I understand is that MANY of them are for medical reasons, equally many for IR and quite a lot combined. Lots of them have IR's which they could not get in Germany. No, the Germans are proabably healthier but they still got their "prussian" type of docs. I have heard of sufficient stories out of Germany to believe hands down that people ran in masses when they could.

Fact is, that EASA FCL might even ease that situation a tad. Because the time when German (and other) docs basically were omnipotent in their decisions, EASA has changed that. I am hopeful in that regard, because also here in Switzerland people have huge problems with them at times, particularly as they are allergic to people they consider overweight.... without the EASA Rule of 35 for PPL and 30 for CPL I'd have lost my license by now.

LSZH(work) LSZF (GA base), Switzerland

Thanks Mooney Driver - if I was in the market for a twin that mid-time Seneca II would certainly look tempting.

EGTT, The London FIR
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