Peter wrote:
I can see that, but the idea that the court can easily access the money doesn’t at all square up with the earlier posts saying that an escrow gives you peace of mind, etc. Who will sue over a ~€50k – €100k plane? Especially internationally.
That is actually a second advantage in terms of “peace of mind”: Esp. with international buyers I would only accept a local (i.e. German in my case) escrow. Therefore the money is already in the country/legislation and I don’t need to deal with international collection. And yes: If someone would take a 100k plane from me w/o paying I would sue them – who wouldn’t?
But perhaps the biggest peace of mind thing: If Buyer accepts to use an escrow you know that they are really intending to pay – so they have their biggest benefit before actually using them…
I can see that, but the idea that the court can easily access the money doesn’t at all square up with the earlier posts saying that an escrow gives you peace of mind, etc. Who will sue over a ~€50k – €100k plane? Especially internationally.
The one thing it does do is demonstrate that the buyer actually has the money. As for the rest, I could sit there for hours detailing how one could screw somebody around 
I guess the definition of the biggest time waster is one without the money and an escrow addresses that one.
It might cost a tiny bit more, but I have always been way more comfortable buying an aircraft through a dealer or prefessional than doing it privately.
As with cars, you pay some 20% extra I am also not sure what extra “warranty” you get – unless an independent prebuy report is available.
Peter wrote:
What is the difference betweenif not using escrow, the buyer simply screwing the seller around by claiming the plane is not as described, etc, etc
if using escrow, the buyer simply screwing the seller around by claiming that some bit of the SA has not been complied with
It’s obviously depending on the legislation. But at least in some legislations the most important value is one which is not mentioned in your summary: It is also difficult for the buyer to get the money back from the escrow.
Therefore what an escrow really does is to ensure that in case there is a dispute between buyer and seller, there at least is money that is easily accessible for a court to distribute. It can’t happen (that easily) that after some time of dispute the seller finds out that the buyer doesn’t have the money (and therefore even if a court decides in favor of the buyer there is nothing to claim) and the other way round the buyer is protected around a seller walking away with the money but not delivering the plane in the agreed condition.
In the context of this thread (which is basically time wasters) I did some digging on what escrow agents do.
The exact value seems to be a mystery. Various non-specific stuff around the place, including claims here on how it protects the parties, but this post explains that the agent transfers the money to the seller when the buyer is happy that the terms of the Sales Agreement (SA) have been complied with.
Essentially they hold the buyer’s money and transfer it to the seller only when the conditions agreed in the sales agreement are confirmed to be met by the buyer. Therefore it is is essential to get all conditions precedent to a sale included in the SA…like all ADs complied with, Proof of VAT, avionics all working, etc… the SA should detail who pays for the pre-buy and what to do with any issues discovered (owner rectifies or price reduced or right to walk away etc…)
What is the difference between
I can think of 50 ways to screw around with the above items e.g. what is proof of VAT paid (sales invoice good enough, CoFC, C88, etc?). Can anyone explain (in detail) how this actually works, with “difficult” people? With “easy” people you don’t need any agent; you shake hands on the deal and it’s done.
It would appear to work if the aircraft is a fully known quantity – for example a new one, one with a specific warranty (all ADs etc applied, etc) – and with documentation which cannot be disputed.
I think that ultimately it is as Silvaire says i.e. you have a good look at it, hand over the money, and fly it away. Just like with a used car, etc.
If you like that approach I believe there are other Cirrus dealers with second hand aircraft for sale, such as UK, Scandi and Holland. I have also noticed that the authorised Cirrus service centres in Europe often have a plane or two for sale.
It might cost a tiny bit more, but I have always been way more comfortable buying an aircraft through a dealer or prefessional than doing it privately. With the exception of my current aircraft which was from a friend and was very straightforward.
Buckerfan wrote:
if you are willing to look at Cirrus’s I suggest you talk to the major European Cirrus dealers, such as Jan-Peter Fischer at Cirrus Germany. He always has a few planes for sale, from customer trade-ins, and is a great source of advice on the market. https://www.cdaircraft.de/about-us
Thanks for the link, they indeed have couple of very nice ones, will definitely give them a call!
if you are willing to look at Cirrus’s I suggest you talk to the major European Cirrus dealers, such as Jan-Peter Fischer at Cirrus Germany. He always has a few planes for sale, from customer trade-ins, and is a great source of advice on the market. https://www.cdaircraft.de/about-us
He helped when I bought a new Cirrus, did a fantastic job handling all the paperwork etc and then when I was ready to sell 4 years later I just handed the plane over to him and he took care of it all. He found a good buyer quickly, once again no hassles for me, cash in my account after only a few weeks.
If he doesn’t have what you want he will know where to find it. And a lovely entrepreneurial guy too.
I recently sold my 90 HP Super Cub. I paid for an ad in a national magazine and advertised it for perhaps a price to sell promptly. The first two interested parties were very easy to deal with, very straightforward. In the end I sold it to a gentleman who closed the transaction after inspecting the log books. I was happy to provide a test flight.
The ad generated nearly a dozen enquiries. It took three days to sell.
I think this is in part how sought after Super Cubs are. On the delivery flight to the new owner where it has its own hangar in a billiard table smooth grass strip in beautiful countryside, I did contemplate how special these aircraft are. Everything you fly over is in high definition, more real, with your senses raised. You also have a special feel for what the atmosphere is doing to the aircraft, and yet the wings give a nice ride in turbulence, although the delivery flight was in silk smooth evening air.
They are an aircraft that put a lie to the adage to the two happiest days saying – selling a Super Cub is not a happy occasion, although I am very glad that this iconic type has found a good home in such a nice airfield and location.
Maoraigh wrote:
Syndicate
You lost me right there. Just sounds terrible to share.
That example is the reason.
Sorry to hear that. Hope you have a Pilatus in your future for all the trouble.
I looked at a Jodel DR1050 in 1999, had a flight, and looked through the logs. I wanted the Syndicate to buy it. But I was outvoted. We bought another, at about the same price, which I thought was inferior.
