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Pipistrel Panthera (combined thread)

I can't see any reference to TKS

The FAQ says that the wings have been prepped for it, but that it won't be available initially. I'm more interested in prop deicing, which I don't see any mention of.

From my current aircraft (TB10) either a Panthera or a TB20 seems the logical next step. The TB20 has more range - the Panthera on the other hand is faster, sexier, more fuel efficient (both by distance and by the hour if you pull the throttle back) and has a parachute (however you feel about it as a pilot, it is a huge factor for most passengers) ... I think I just made my own mind up.

Does anyone know if Pipistrel do factory visits? That would be a nice trip from the UK next summer.

EGEO

Yes, they do. I visited their factory a couple of years ago. I would suggest you contact their PR manager Taja Boscarol - her email is taja (at) pipistrel.si. I am sure she will be able to help you.

EYVP

I am sure you can visit Pipistrel. They offered this to me too.

You can stick a TKS system onto more or less any plane, that has a suitable prop and space in the boot for some 50 litres of the fluid. It's a very effective system - with certain downsides, not least of which is the completely outrageous cost of about €50k (a figure currently quoted for the Tecnam 206).

I think that assuming the engine is OK, the scope for gremlins will be limited; at least in the IFR variant (GTN650+750) whose avionics will be sorted by the time it comes out.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

I showed up at Pipistrel unannounced, my typical pattern :-), hoping that being with a representative of the Slovenian government (an ex-girlfriend) would do the trick. Unfortunately they were closed for the holiday season so I was unable to try my luck. It was an impressive facility for their relatively low aircraft production volume but I understand they make solar panels there too, or something along those lines. I'd like to go back.

I would bet that Pipistrel could sell twice as many airplanes if they changed their company name. It sounds awful. I know it's Latin pipistrellus (bat). At least to the German audience, the association is "urine stream".

I emailed them about the TKS issue. Their reply was as follows:

"The version we are certifying now will not have TKS. This will be installed in a second generation model.The reason is technological; although we have space in the wing to install the fluid pumping system, we are waiting for one of our partners to certify an electrical de-icing system. The advantage of electrical vs liquid is lower operating costs and no need to recharge the liquid, which means safer operations".

I did ask about prop de-ice too and assume they are planning in the same electrical de-ice system. I'm assuming they are talking about something like Thermawing which looks a truly fantastic system.

I came across Thermawing some time ago - perhaps a year or so ago - and can't understand why more aircraft don't have this? I mentioned it to a friend at the time who said that it wouldn't solve the problem of run-back? Interesting though, that an STC is still pending on SR22, which it was when i came across this last year.

IMO, this is a great aircraft and has almost all features that anyone could want - aerodynamically efficient, significantly better than the competition on fuel, good range, BRS, G500, retractable trailing link gear, 4 adults, de-ice etc.

They should lead the market - and take many potential Corvalis / Cirrus customers with them along the way!

Thermawing suffered from the same issue as a lot of GA innovation. First they're the greatest thing since sliced bread, then they suffer from infant mortality problems and their reputation is gone. Cessna changed the Corvalis from Thermawing to TKS. If Cessna is giving up such a great technology and invests the money to certify a different system, then there must be a very good reason why Thermawing is not suitable?

Shortly before Air Touring folded several years ago (amazingly somebody is still paying for the hosting on that long-obsolete website) they had the dealership for the Cessna (formerly Lancair) 400. OK, they also had the dealership for the Javelin jet

The C400 was going to have the heated wing system and some were built with it, or had it retrofitted.

The stories (this is HEARSAY but it is from AT employees who were there at the time) I heard were that the system suffered from local overheating, obviously damaging the composite which has practically zero resistance to excessive heat. Others (maybe the manufacturer of the system) countered these claims, saying that somebody installed it incorrectly, with wires mixed up, causing the power to be applied to the wrong parts of the heater.

Then a lot of other stuff went wrong. I don't know the details but during one recent year (2010 or 2011) only 1 (one) C400 was delivered.

Whatever one thinks of Cessna's present-day piston product lineup, they are IMHO the smartest company in the business. They planned, designed, built and delivered the Mustang on time, on price, etc. So I think there were genuine major issues with the system.

The C400 is a very nice plane (I have flown in one) with great performance but obviously bought with an awesome 100LL flow rate. It is also astonishingly pricey today - $750k last I heard and for another $250k you can have a good-condition Jetprop which will totally outclass it on any metric of relevance.

So maybe Cessna are slowly deciding that this one is never going to go in big numbers, and aren't putting a lot of resources into sorting it. TKS is an easy option.

I have only a TKS prop but while the full TKS system is reportedly extremely effective and much better than rubber boots, there are operational issues with it which are not for everybody. The approved liquid is very expensive - unless you buy it on Ebay I pay about €220 for a 20 litre drum; in my case it lasts for ever because my prop deice holds only 2 litres and that lasts at least a year's flying. For the full system you will need more than 20 litres, but I cannot lift even that drum, so one would need a hangar where one can keep a big drum, on wheels, with some pumping facility. If you don't have a hangar but fly often, I don't know what you will do... the stuff simply can't be practically transported in bulk given that at most European airfields one cannot drive one's car or pickup right up to the plane. The stuff can be very messy; a spill has to be cleaned up. The payload hit is at least 50kg, and a lot of people fly with the system nearly empty. And at full flow rate the cost of the liquid will be very significant.

The droplets on the front window don't help forward visibility. I normally turn it off some time before landing, and prefer to fly in some IMC (above 0C obviously) after turning it off, to wash the window as far as possible. OTOH what other solution is there for the front window? IMHO, the little heated panel (seen on old Senecas, etc) is a poor solution, and full heated windows cost about €25k.

Also, in Europe, there is no practical way to refill away from base. One can refill the prop-only TKS, simply by carrying a few 2 litre bottles, but you can't do that with the full system. Same with oxygen refills... nearly impossible to find.

It's obviously better to use TKS sparingly, while transiting through freezing layers, but in the European "Eurocontrol IFR routings" context this is not going to be for a few minutes at a time, unless you have a turbo engined plane with a ~FL250 ceiling, which the Panthera isn't. And anyway you then face significant issues with oxygen; OK with responsible switched-on adults but if some passenger isn't breathing properly at those levels they will soon be in trouble.

Also the company making the TKS system is behaving like it can turn seawater into gold and the current price is in the region of €40k-50k which is totally outrageous for what is involved.

I think it is no suprise that rubber boots continue to be used... and that Pipistrel are waiting for the heated wing system to get sorted.

Runback might be a problem. Bigger jets deal with it by making the leading edge so hot that the droplets evaporate on contact, but this won't happen on the GA system.

Pipistrel could go for the prop-only TKS system. It's cheap (1/10 of the cost, max), easy to install, and very effective on the prop and the front window. It is the best ~€4k one will ever spend on a plane.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

As someone who has flown many happy hours - and thousand of miles - in his PA28 RT Arrow IV and who, despite the extra stability and speed it gives, has often had to 'defend' its design (often to people who have never flown it), I am intrigued and impressed that the Pipistrel Panthera is, also, a 'T' tail!

Rochester, UK, United Kingdom

The Pipistrel Panthera has been rolled out and taxied around, with just one little hiccup:



United Kingdom
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