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[why not] a Robin R2180?

wigglyamp wrote:

There’s already an EASA STC for retrofit of G500 with GNS430W/530W across all DR300/400, and now a factory SB for G500 when combined withGTN750/650, although it’s only available from CEAPR in France or Gama Aviation in the UK. Shortly there will be a stand-alone GTN approval for IFR without the G500 as well.

Sure. That is why I wrote

Jesse wrote:

While this is true for new aircraft, unfortunatly this is not true for the old versions, which require additional certification at additional cost.

The STC of CEAPR and GAMA ar not free of charge are they? Last time I checked they required a payment for them. Just as Socta on their own G500 STC .
Therefore for these aircraft, an upgrade will always be more expensive, then who can use the free of charge use of Garmin own’s STC? Will the GTN approval be free of charge, supported by Garmin?

JP-Avionics
EHMZ

The STC of CEAPR and GAMA ar not free of charge are they? Last time I checked they required a payment for them. Just as Socta on their own G500 STC .
Therefore for these aircraft, an upgrade will always be more expensive, then who can use the free of charge use of Garmin own’s STC? Will the GTN approval be free of charge, supported by Garmin?

No they’re not free. Gama sometimes produce an STC at a customer request and it’s fully funded, but in many cases, will take a risk to invest in producing an STC in the belief that it will sell sufficient copies to recover the costs and hopefully make a bit of a profit. If no-one is prepared to do this, then many aircraft will never get approvals.
When the Garmin G500 and Aspen EFD1000 were first introduced, Garmin and Aspen couldn’t get validation of their FAA STCs so the only route was for European design organisations to do the work, and there was partial support from the equipment manufacturers. Whether it was Less Avionics (later Gama), Avionik Straubing or Airplus, the main financial risk lay with the design company, and certainly in our case, some of the STCs did not do as well as we’d hope and we lost money.

In the case of the new GTN approval for the DR400, there is no financial support from Garmin.

Avionics geek.
Somewhere remote in Devon, UK.

wigglyamp wrote:

No they’re not free. Gama sometimes produce an STC at a customer request and it’s fully funded, but in many cases, will take a risk to invest in producing an STC in the belief that it will sell sufficient copies to recover the costs and hopefully make a bit of a profit. If no-one is prepared to do this, then many aircraft will never get approvals.

Sure, and it’s good that you and your collegues are doing this kind off work. On a smaller scale we do the same for minor changes, where we often don’t charge for the engineering work for that part. The difficulty of this service is that the customer doesn’t benefit from it on a “useable way”
By buying avionics you get new possibilities, by buying paperwork, you buy the approval, but don’t gain from that other then that you are allowed to have it installed.

JP-Avionics
EHMZ

FWIW, the Robin that sparked the question got sold locally, but I would like to thank each and every one of you for all the comments and advice. Really – thank you!

My main takeaway is that finding a plane that has all of what one wants in a plane installed with all the required supporting paperwork is the most reasonable option. I’m going to make a list and ask for comments in another thread once I put some more thought into it.

The second takeaway is that if a plane is lacking something of reasonable complexity, e.g. an IFR GPS or an autopilot, it is crucial to know the amount of effort needed to get it legally installed, and that it might not always be reasonably possible, especially for the less popular planes.

tmo
EPKP - Kraków, Poland

@TMO : A 160 hp metal Robin with an attractive price just came up on Planecheck.

LOAN Wiener Neustadt Ost, Austria

@blueline Did you fly one of these by chance? I am just advising a quite small girl on her first plane and I think the Robins should be suitable for small persons, but haven’t even seen an R3000 from near, let alone flew one. She needs 3 cushions for a C172SP and she thinks it flies like a wet sponge (and I am not objecting in this matter… the 172 got worse from year to year….)

Last Edited by mh at 27 Apr 21:29
mh
Aufwind GmbH
EKPB, Germany

@mh : No. While I have a certain weakness for obscure french airplanes, as my avatar shows , I’ve never flown a metal Robin.

Last Edited by blueline at 27 Apr 21:36
LOAN Wiener Neustadt Ost, Austria

I used to fly R3000s occasionally, albeit more than ten years ago.

Well performing in the cruise department (125-128 knots TAS)
Good useful loads, as with the wooden Robins.
Relatively low noise, due to low redline RPM.
Handling-wise, I didn’t like them too much.
The control yoke is very awkward.
The cabin is a bit cramped. The seats too small. For me that is.
Very little support, parts are presumably hard to get.
No mogas STCs. Difficult to add/modify avionics, due to missing STCs/AMLs. Which is due to the low volumes produced.

I wouldn’t buy one.

Last Edited by boscomantico at 27 Apr 22:05
Mainz (EDFZ) & Egelsbach (EDFE), Germany
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