To invest in property, or aircraft? TB21 for 240k euros, and other overpriced aircraft.

Depreciation to offset tax liability?
Is this analysis for the UK market?

Peter wrote:

You found that in the mainly-US Socata owners’ group It isn’t any aircraft in this thread AFAICT. The new owner is in the USA.

Ok i put the bar up by erasing the registration from the post. Name and reg gave it away.
I was/am intrigued because i was a prospect for this very plane before and even i noticed too much to fix for me as a starting owner.

Alex, I keep my fingers crossed and wish you the stamina it requires (even much less than that can be annoying…)

@Peter, I am aware that a complete overhaul, strip and repaint needs to be done. However, I don’t know any place in Europe where this major job could be done.

I need to be sure after they dismantle all the mechanics they know what needs to be replaced and how to put it all back together… TKS system also needs special care at repaint, those tiny holes can be easily filled in with adhesive or paint rendering it unusable.

If anyone knows where I should send the plane for such a major overhaul, please let me know.

Thanks!

@ch.ess, thank you for the wishes :)

I see you are residing in Germany, which is relatively closer to my location than let’s say, UK. Do you know any location there where a major overhaul like this can be done by professionals?

It will need a complete strip, anti corrosion treatment and paint and replacement of the defective parts.

And hopefully I won’t need to sell my (other) kidney for this…

Good luck to you, Alex. Old neglected aircraft always have a money-pitness to them, but once you’ve committed to making them right, you’ll know it will be done correctly and to your specs. Also, let’s say you’d bought and financed a newer example that didn’t need as much work – would that really have been much cheaper? Compound interest over a 20 year period is a huge cost – better to pay as you go.

Alex,

I just re-read the whole thread and saw your questions and our answers. You were told in pretty clear language to walk away, I myself sent out what was probably the harshest message I ever sent to a perspective buyer (I am very much for people buying airplanes and usually do the opposite!) about this airplane. We told you to do a proper pre-buy and do your homework but well, if the want is bigger than the will to listen, that is what happens. You took your choice and you will eventually end up with a plane you will enjoy but it does take time and money to fix it up. You might want to read Adam’s threads about his fixer-uppers to see where it gets worse :). At least yours is flying even in the state it’s in.

I myself own a 53 year old plane which I bought with a run out engine. It has not the best of paint either. I did not need to do a pre-buy because I knew all the people involved with maintenance and the previous owner for decades and I got away with it pretty well. Eventually I will need to do a repaint but what really got me to the edge of financial capability was avionic upgrades. At least there, your plane is very well equipped and needs if anything just the WAAS upgrade for one or both of your GNS’s. That is manageable as opposed to re-doing a whole panel.

A friend of mine bought an Arrow III which had a history at a flight school and made it his own. It also was a thorny way and he has not repainted it yet, but he is flying and very happy with his choice, even though that plane was worse than yours by a margin and needed a lot of tinkering before it was what it is now.

My personal take on your situation now is that there are things which need to be done NOW and others which are “ugly” but not something you need to do immediately. And you would need some good advice on what needs to be done NOW and what can wait. Safety clearly goes before pretty here.

As Peter has said, the landing gear is a must do, ASAP. The mechanical things need to be addressed. You need a proper shop who can do a proper annual and fix all this. You might want to ask @Placido where he maintains his TB20 (I reckon it may well be MFGZ maintenance) or find some other TB20 owners who can tell you where to go for this. I can ask my maintenance shop in Speck Fehraltdorf if they can deal with a TB20, they do deal with my Mooney and while they are not the cheapest, I am very happy with their work. But it is Switzerland so it is expensive. Troyes Aviation are in France and they do TB20ties and they might be an obvious choice as they also have the access to Daher like not many others. But I am sure that there must be a repuatable shop in Germany which can deal with this. Maybe ask in the P&F forum, as there are only Germans there. Rieger at Straubing comes to mind by reputation and they are located next to MT props, so if that prop has an issue, they can have a look at it (and they will, they are very helpful!). And there is Avionic Straubing next door to those two so you can sort out your AP and maybe think about upgrading your GNS’s at the same time. You can also ask Jan Brill if he has a suggestion, he knows the German market for maintenance really well. If you are visiting the Aero, most of them are there.

Painting the plane, doing seats, new windows, all that has no immediate impact on the usability and airworthiness. Ok, you’ve done the seats and they look lovely, but painting can wait. It doesn’t look so bad on the picture anyway. What works and what is in decent shape, leave it be for now.

As I said, you took your choice against the advice of some very experienced people, now it is the time to get your head down and live with the consequences. In retrospect once you are done, you will find that it may well have been worth the effort. All in all, you do have a pretty nice plane here once the annoying stuff has been done. TKS, well equipped (I would even consider upgrading the GNS’s to WAAS before painting but even that is not that urgent) so you won’t have much of avionic work. From a point of view of capability, your airplane has the potential to give you a lot of possibilities once you are done, just have a look at Peters Thread about installing TKS, you already got all this.

So it’s time to bottle up your frustration and get the job done. The faster the better. What has happened, has happened. But I think once you are done, you will have some regrets but not close to as many as now but foremost, you will have a very nice airplane to give you a lot of joy and capability for years to come.

Thank you for your comprehensive answer!

I remember your harsh message from the initial thread. Due to that message I’ve spent 1 more week in Germany trying to make sure the plane is OK. By the way, you owe me about $2,000 in hotels and restaurants bills :)

The logic was something like this: At the time, I had a budget of about $100,000 and had to decide between an almost new Diamond DA40 and an used Mooney or Socata TB20. I have read some good articles about owning a single prop plane, including Peter’s TB20 GT series and your Mooney website.

As I had only recently graduated from the PPL school, I knew a lot of stories about icing, you know, the kind of stories PPL students use to scare each other when they don’t have anything to do and they wait for their Diamond DA20 slot in the school’s backyard. Peter really wanted a TKS system, so I normally assumed this is the most important thing in general aviation!

So, I went to see some planes, a Diamond at LOAN Austria and a TB20 in Trier, Germany. At first, I didn’t like the look of the TB20, being used to shiny composite planes I’ve flown before, but after the first take off on the test ride…. O MY God! It was such a different experience! I could really feel the engine’s power, the sound of the gear retracting was music to my ears, and the plane felt so sturdy and stable, unlike any Diamond or Cessna I’ve flown before… I instantly forgot any rusty components and yoke slack, and I thought I can easily repair everything in a week or so, just like in my local BMW car shop. Sure, I’ve heard stories of planes being grounded for months just for a screw or a prop blade to arrive, but I thought it’s just bad luck and it can never happen to me. And about the high prices for Socata parts? It must have been just some envy Cirrus owners.

It was the only TKS equipped model on sale at the moment, and also had some better avionics, the other TB20s on the marked seemed to pale in comparison.

Of course, I really took your advice from this forum and went to the company that did the last annual to make an inspection. But it turned out the guy there was just a friend of the owner and he said to me everything seems to be OK!

I wasn’t satisfied with the answer and I called a shop near Frankfurt to do a serious pre buy inspection. They had an opening in 1 week time. I convinced the owner to fly the plane there in a week, went to the maintenance shop and told the guys there what to expect and that a serious inspection is needed, shook hands and went home.

2 weeks later the shop (in Siegen) called me to tell they performed an engine, gear and corrosion inspection and it seems fine! Just some cosmetics needed… It later turned out that they have previously worked on that plane and they couldn’t admit the sloppy job they’ve done…

I paid for the plane, and called a few other shops in Germany where I hoped they can diagnose it and make a list of parts that need replacement. Most of them were too busy at the time, but I found an FAA inspector in Michelstadt (damn upslope runway!) where I did an annual inspection even if it wasn’t due, and insisted on checking the engine pressure, brakes and the things I thought were important at the time. Mike did some good things, even changed some brake lines even if they were not broken, took care of the spark plugs, filters and so on, but he never told me the plane has any serious condition that puts me at risk. In fact, he insisted in doing a check flight by himself, so I presumed the plane is OK. Not important but funny thing, he also turned out to have previously worked at that plane.

So I’ve flown the TB20 over the Alps, through Germany, Austria, Hungary and Romania in an epic flight back home. It was only after this that I start noticing the miriad of small problems that didn’t seem important before. I tried to make a list of parts that need to be changed, but most part numbers from the IPC returned no result on MySocata website. I even ordered wrong parts. So I really need some professional help.

After your reactions to my posts and pictures on this forum, I am even scared to fly it as it is!

Hopefully, there is a silver lining, as I now know more about the plane and how it works. And I suppose it must be a good thing that will help me in case of an emergency, as opposed to the case of some pilot that only knows where the fuel and oil go :)

I really appreciate all your help guys, and I hope my experience will help those trying to buy a pre owned, G1 Socata TB20 model. I will open a website where I’ll post all the work that will be done, along with photos, part numbers and prices.

Thanks!

AlexTB20 wrote:

I see you are residing in Germany, which is relatively closer to my location than let’s say, UK. Do you know any location there where a major overhaul like this can be done by professionals?

It will need a complete strip, anti corrosion treatment and paint and replacement of the defective parts.

And hopefully I won’t need to sell my (other) kidney for this…

No – it wont be your kidney. But do count on an arm and a leg, though :-) just kidding.

Your overhaul is a tall order, that I would not have particular insights where to go for.
So far, I only had individual jobs – and not sure the FAA certification requires anything extra.

LTB Arnsberg has been knowledgable for the problems/solutions I needed, they know a thing or two about Socata.

The paint job would not be my main concern – and usually done by differetn folks anyway – after fixing technical stuff, I suppose.

AlexTB20 wrote:

After your reactions to my posts and pictures on this forum, I am even scared to fly it as it is!

No, I do not see a reason not to fly it and I don’t think I said that. Particularly since you have had it annualled.

I did an annual inspection even if it wasn’t due, and insisted on checking the engine pressure, brakes and the things I thought were important at the time. Mike did some good things, even changed some brake lines even if they were not broken, took care of the spark plugs, filters and so on, but he never told me the plane has any serious condition that puts me at risk. In fact, he insisted in doing a check flight by himself, so I presumed the plane is OK.

Ok, so this means the airplane is in annual and there is a FAA inspector who has signed for it. This with the works you quote should make it safe enough to fly for the time being. Yes there are things which should be rectified, but I would most probably also fly it. You have seen on the flight home that the plane works ok and while there are some things I’d rectify rather quicker than later, there is no reason to do anything rash. The plane has, after all, had a recent annual and been signed off by a competent person! And none of us here can diagnose just how urgent a problem is just on the basis of a few pictures. BTW, were these taken before or after the annual?

I would think the first order of business would be the landing gear to be planned to be put in order either on the next annual or earlier if the opportunity arises. If this is also the reason the plane is slower (bad rigging of the gear door) then this will take care of the most urgent thing. The other bit which i would have checked if “Mike” has not, is the shaky controls. Did you address this with him? What did he say? I would say that if he pronounced it fit to fly after the check flight he has done, then it should be good enough for now but I would keep in mind to have it re-assessed at the next check.

Having said that, I have seen a M20C which had a similar kind of movement in the elevator discovered during pre-buy which the guy doing the pre-buy did not like. We took it to a Mooney savvy guy at his suggestion (former MSC guy) and he tried it and said to forget it, it was well within tolerance. It got eventually overhauled some years later by an MSC which had to be prompted to do it as they also considered it well within tolerance.

What about the AP problem? Has that been resolved? If not, a visit in Straubing might be a good idea to have them look at it.

The paint job, I agree with ch.ess is something for MUCH later. Pretty does not count at all at the moment.

I’d say, go ahead and enjoy your plane for the time being, get to know it and make a list of the things you want done on the occasion of the next maintenance.

AlexTB20 wrote:

Hopefully, there is a silver lining, as I now know more about the plane and how it works. And I suppose it must be a good thing that will help me in case of an emergency, as opposed to the case of some pilot that only knows where the fuel and oil go :)

Yes. And it also will be a lot easier to now really make a list of the things you want done and compile it so it’s ready when the plane goes into maintenance next.

If you are in Friedrichshafen, I’d be happy to talk to you there, even better if you have the plane along.

Best regards
Urs