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To invest in property, or aircraft? TB21 for 240k euros, and other overpriced aircraft.

The VAT question is relevant. In the absence of proof of import VAT paid, you need to discount the price by the German VAT rate in case they come after you. A not unrelated precedent is here.

I recall previous discussions on this VAT topic. A Socata doesn’t attract import VAT if it never left the EU, and obtaining a C88 for it is logically impossible, and a Certificate of Free Circulation is an “empty” document, but there is more to this and I don’t remember the details.

I don’t think the sale is a scam. I see this kind of thing all the time – get emails about it. A lot of sellers seem to be inept and do all the right things to make sure any prospective buyer with a brain runs away. Having the money to own a plane doesn’t confer any particular level of normal behaviour on the owner

Re Gomolzig, I would be cautious because they are very well known and regarded (in Germany there is a strong “do business in Germany, and with particular firms” culture – sure I will get criticised for saying this but I have a mountain of comms on this topic ) and you thus can’t be sure they have never had any involvement with this plane. The prebuy must be done by somebody who has never touched the plane and who has no political connections or liabilities in GA. Anybody who does a prebuy and declares the plane to be poor will risk repercussions from various places. I once arranged a prebuy on a PA28 in the UK… it was a really bad one (not flown for years and very corroded from being abandoned outside, for sale for 40k and worth scrap, maybe 10k) and my friend the A&P/EASA66 guy who did it and told the prospective buyer to walk away was threatened by the owner (a maintenance company which held the plane against huge accumulated parking fees while the owner was serving a jail sentence). I suggest you find some guy who works largely outside the “usual circles” and knows the type. A TB20 is a straightforward design with nothing that cannot be inspected visually in a day.

A prebuy (I have this from my A&P/EASA66) is normally 2 days. 1 day spent checking the paperwork and 1 day checking the plane. Both are important because dodgy paperwork can make a plane worthless.

An Annual (as discussed higher up) is a good move. It will cover all the bases. Obviously you don’t want to do that until you own the plane, but you are stuck with the possible issue of the previous owner not paying for rectifications. This seller’s attitude suggests this could be a problem area.

A general comment: like with internet dating, most people looking for a plane invest a lot into the first one they meet. Especially if they travelled a long way to see it – that is a sure way of falling in love with it. But actually there is no connection between the 1st one and the Nth one. You could see 5 crap ones and the 6th could be great. Well, that’s unless there is something you are doing to inadvertently select the bad ones

EDIT: there isn’t a specific TB20 inspection AFAIK but an Annual (which is nearly all a visual inspection and lubrication) would cover it. However in this case a quick look at the defects already mentioned would produce a “walk away” list worth 5 figures, and if the seller isn’t dropping the price then you must walk away, because for something over 100k you can buy a TB20 GT.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

@Peter, I would do that in seconds, however there seems to be a scarce supply of GPS.

The only one I can find on PlaneCheck is PH-MLK, at 145,000 Euros with 8,000 hours total and 1,500 TSO, the rest are north of 160,000 with not much time left also.

If you can suggest anything, I would greatly appreciate it…

LRIA, Romania

Just to stir the pot – if not a TB20 then what? A SR22, but that is much more expensive, a Commander 114, a PA32? Any other ideas, examples?

tmo
EPKP - Kraków, Poland

Look around more and not just Planecheck which is only one of numerous sites.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Most legacy GA aircraft trade on an as is-where is basis. If the paperwork is reasonably complete, the type doesn’t suffer from some expensive ADs, or potential service bulletins that may be upgraded to an AD, the aircraft flies straight and everything on it appears to work, then it is a matter of making an offer which provides ample financial cushion. Look inside the inspection panels, check very carefully for corrosion, ideally price in the cost of the overhaul if the engine is over 1,000 hours and more than a few years (half a dozen plus?) since overhaul. Add 25-40% to your estimate of getting it your acceptable level of condition, and then take a decision.

Am not sure an annual necessarily addresses some latent issues – aircraft which have been purchased to a subject to an annual plus rectification model, seem to have as many, if not more, subsequent squawks. Some of the assessments of on condition can be quite subjective.

Motivated sellers will usually not walk away from a no hassle, buyer beware, cash offer. Once an aircraft has sat unloved, out of annual, outside, for say eighteen months or so, you are doing the seller a real favour taking the aircraft off their hands.

Oxford (EGTK), United Kingdom

Basically I wanted a 4 seater that gets over 150 knots, IFR capable, low wing, TKS as an option and doesn’t look like it was designed by my grandfather :)

Cirrus SR22 seems to be way too expensive and I don’t like the lack of feedback on the yoke, Diamond DA40 would be a great option if a G1000 could be later installed for let’s say a 30,000 Euros, and Socata TB20 looks like the best compromise between speed, looks, safety and price.

Too bad it’s so hard to find a good one and that some screws and bolts can be as much as 5,000 sometimes.

LRIA, Romania

AlexTB20 wrote:

doesn’t look like it was designed by my grandfather :)

I believe in reducing complexity so have a strong bias towards normally aspirated, fixed gear and accepting that GA is IFR lite (modern turbine equipment excepted).

However, if a modern, efficient design is a criteria, I would suggest the Mooney 201/205. Mooney probably accomplished the efficiency apex in certified production aircraft. The undercarriage is also straightforward to maintain.

Budget for a GTN650/GN255/Remote Transponder and junk most of the legacy stuff (and price it in your purchase decision as junk) and you have a decent IFR panel – ideally without a slaved compass/HSI (more stuff to go wrong). A Mooney just needs a wing leveller, it flies on rails. So an S-TEC 20, again very cheap to maintain.

…it will also deliver an honest 160 KTAS.

Oxford (EGTK), United Kingdom

if not a TB20 then what? A SR22, but that is much more expensive, a Commander 114, a PA32? Any other ideas, examples?

I wanted a 4 seater that gets over 150 knots, IFR capable, low wing, TKS as an option and doesn’t look like it was designed by my grandfather :)

I went through this exercise back in 2002, with similar criteria, and the TB20 was the clear winner by a huge margin. I bought it without a test flight!

There is a steady migration from the TB20 crowd to the SR22, mainly where people want full TKS which is a hard project to retrofit on a TB20 (I plan to do that next winter) and where family members refuse to fly unless a parachute is provided. But yes it does cost a lot more. People are selling up from GTs for 120-15k and buying SR22s for 200-400k. The maintenance also costs a lot more due to the tendency to go away from small firms to a Cirrus dealer.

I wouldn’t attach much value to a G1000. It ties you to the Garmin dealer scene and the indications are that the boxes are starting to fail in significant numbers at the 10-12 year point which many are now reaching. The older avionics do the job fine, so long as you have a decent centre stack which today means a “W” GPS (but you can replace a 430 or 530 with a W for not so much).

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

do you know what would be a ‘normal’ yoke play for an old pre GT model? Would let’s say a 1cm left to right play be acceptable, or it shouldn’t be there at all?

This is what I have:


A bit more play on the left due to obviously that being the main flying position. This is after some 2000hrs and 15 years.

The extra play on the left is all due to the upper left universal joint which last time I looked was about €1000 – a similar price for other GA aircraft.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Peter wrote:

I wouldn’t attach much value to a G1000. It ties you to the Garmin dealer scene and the indications are that the boxes are starting to fail in significant numbers at the 10-12 year point which many are now reaching. The older avionics do the job fine, so long as you have a decent centre stack which today means a “W” GPS (but you can replace a 430 or 530 with a W for not so much).

Well I am not sure there is evidence to support the G1000s are failing point other than normal problems you get with any older glass or avionics but in any event it is not an upgrade option. As Robert says you are looking more likely at a better 650/750 or even Avidyne glass navigator as a straightforward upgrade. And I think it will be important to the future of an airframe like the TB20 that people improve and update the panels over time – that is what the market wants and wil provide functionality as well as making resale easier.

Last Edited by JasonC at 10 May 06:43
EGTK Oxford
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