Here is the LE500 brochure from AVIC’s booth at 2017 Paris Air Show.
It’s certified, but only in China (by local civil aviation authority).
So what have they copied badly tht the performance is so badly behind the original? 137 kts cruise and 13775 ft service ceiling? Not very interesting.
The question is,if it is certified by the CAAC, what does that mean to operate this plane outside China. Is the CAAC ICAO compliant? Clearly both the US and EASA would want their own certifications but what about elsewhere?
This TB20 copy has been around for a long time. I mention here in 2009 that it came out in 2003.
The TB20 does 138-140kt at economy cruise i.e. 11.5 USG/hr, 2300rpm, LOP. The 13k ceiling doesn’t make sense however and is probably a cockup.
There was some debate a long time ago whether China could sell this in the 1st World and not get sued for copyright, but maybe you can just copy a plane visually? I doubt Socata patented anything on the TB20, and if they did, one would just implement that part differently. Also the patents would have expired by now. But I don’t think copyright expires so quickly. The -V4A5 engine is different but I can’t see how; maybe two separate mags?
Peter wrote:
but maybe you can just copy a plane visually?
What laws should prevent it?
A Chinese manufacturer could probably take over the light GA market really quick if they tried hard enough, as they will be though to beat on price. They could probably sell new aircraft for the same price that we buy thirty year old used aircraft at and still turn a profit. Of course this requires sufficient build-quality and safety, but it would be naive to think the Chinese could not keep up there. After all most of our consumer electronics is already made there.
I think we have had multiple threads on this; this one is quite good.
One issue is that one cannot make everything in China. The engine and the avionics is one problem – Chinese versions of these would face various issues. And these items make up a big chunk of the manufacturing cost.
Also a lot of Chinese stuff is crap. In fact almost everything they make is either trivial stuff or high-end but crap quality – unless the factory is run by Westerners or they have a major Western customer who dictates the QA and has a load of his own staff on the shop floor (that’s how high-end smartphones are made there).
Peter wrote:
Also a lot of Chinese stuff is crap. In fact almost everything they make is either trivial stuff or high-end but crap quality – unless the factory is run by Westerners or they have a major Western customer who dictates the QA and has a load of his own staff on the shop floor (that’s how high-end smartphones are made there).
That xenophobic and stereotypical comment is a bit outdated, Peter. Chinese companies under Chinese ownership and management produce some of the best high-end smartphones nowadays, even the software/firmware is top notch. I just got the brand new OnePlus 5, a mobile phone that is on par with Samsung’s S8 and Apple’s iPhone 7 Plus.
Don’t forget that “Made in Germany” was introduced by the Brits in order to clearly mark inferior products as such and protect British consumers from buying “crap”. Look what happened…
I did say “or they have a major Western customer who dictates the QA and has a load of his own staff on the shop floor (that’s how high-end smartphones are made there)” which is exactly the case above.
Also “made in Germany” has always been a desirable thing here, and I have lived in the UK since 1969. Maybe immediately post-WW2 Germany didn’t have a great reputation?
China is capable of making almost anything, from utter crap to top quality (consumer grade e.g. Iphone) stuff, according to the customer specification and how much he wants to pay. But as I wrote elsewhere, most Western customers, especially non-consumer-stuff customers, make the more complex stuff back home (to protect skills etc) and use China for the simple (and cheap) stuff. Hence the crap reputation of Chinese goods. They need somebody to tightly specify the product and to oversee the process.
I’ve been manufacturing some of my stuff in China for 25 years.
On the topic, according to people who have seen the Chinese TB20 close-up, the QA would need seriously improving to compete with anything in current production.
They would also have an uphill battle on developing and certifying their own avionics etc.
I would suggest that if you want to make a GA plane in China which competes quality for quality then your main saving will be in the direct labour, which is significant but not as much as people might think, by the time you got production properly organised in the West and did the obvious stuff like tooling up the skin panels and similar airframe parts, and standardising the avionics and getting the whole cable harness, including all the options, made in …. China 
It might bring a 500k plane down to 400k but it won’t bring it down to 200k for which you would need to do the engine and avionics too.
Half the domestic air-conditioners in the world are made in China, either under obscure brand names or resold by supermarkets or DIY stores under their own name. I recently bought a Whirlpool unit and was only slightly surprised to see that it was made in China.
We are deluding ourselves by demeaning Chinese manufacturing.
Simon
Peter wrote:
It might bring a 500k plane down to 400k but it won’t bring it down to 200k for which you would need to do the engine and avionics too.
I generally agree with Peter in terms of QC in China at present within his qualified criteria….but this is rapidly improving…Using a US built engine or US avionics may be academic…hopefully there will soon be some game-changing battery technology and electric motors will takeover…much quieter and cleaner….may even make airports acceptable to nimbys…and for sure china will be churning them out…
