Menu Sign In Contact FAQ
Banner
Welcome to our forums

How much would you pay to fly this Cessna P210 Turbine Silver Eagle

I have never read any of the maintenance data on the Silver Eagle P210 conversion.

I have read alot on the Soloy 206 with Allison 250 upgrade, as I had a project one a few months back. In the text of the STC for the conversion, it made all the manufacturers maintenance recommendations mandatory. It also meant you had to go back to Soloy frequently as only they were approved to do things like gearbox overhauls and quill shafts etc. These issues have grounded more than a couple of Soloy converted aircraft as they had reduced capability on these tasks.

My point is, you need to check into the fine print in any of these major conversions to see you are not being tied to one company for ongoing extortion. The right piston P210 maintained for years by the right P210 technician would be good enough for me!

Buying, Selling, Flying
EIBR, Ireland

WilliamF wrote: WilliamF wrote:

to see you are not being tied to one company for ongoing extortion.
all the manufacturers maintenance recommendations mandatory.

Thank you @WilliamF

Out of curiosity, how is this in regards to the PA46 JetProp conversion?

And in general:
Does the manufacturer recommendation override EASA maintenance regulations (private NCO ELA1&2).
For instance: P210 Silver Eagle manufacturer “recommendation” is TBO mandatory for 3000h you cannot go over TBO?

Thanks!

CB IR Instruction
LOWG, LOWW

As a long time Jetprop owner I can attest that the maintenance is pretty straightforward providing you are prepared to get somewhat involved and understand where the Piper Aircraft part ends and the Jetprop part begins to determine which maintenance/parts manual you are working from.

Generally anything firewall forward is part of the Rocket Engineering Jetprop STC, and there are a handful of parts (mostly non consumable) which you can only source from Rocket, and they are responsive when you do need them. They also publish original manufacturers part numbers alongside their own in the Jetprop IPC if it is a standard part which is very helpful for alternate supply.
For the most part you are maintaining a standard small PT6A and propeller which has a multitude of supply routes and engineering expertise.

Piper could be difficult in the past if they figured out they are dealing with a Jetprop conversion. They hate it in a very small minded way, however having to deal with Piper directly generally went away when they sold all their spare parts business to Aviall about 10 years ago, who will supply anybody who can pay.

There are also a multitude of other parts suppliers in the US of PA46 spares. I have never had a problem tracking something down, although sometimes it takes time.
Lead times from Piper who ultimately supply Aviall can be a factor if it is a rarely replaced part. The fact the PA46 is still in production in various forms means it is very unlikely you would be stuck for parts or engineering support long term.

There are a few good maintenance shops in UK and Germany who have expertise with the conversion as well which makes a big difference in getting a timely and cost effective service.
Avionics wise it is open architecture/ non G1000 etc so you can have whatever you want apart from the engine monitoring which I am guessing only a handful of management systems would support.

Most of the Jetprops I know are operated under FAA part 91 rules, so mostly on condition in terms of TBO times. Here in Thailand they are less flexible and do take the manufactures various recommended time/life limits as hard limits, however both the Piper and Rocket maintenance schedules are reasonably pragmatic.

E

Last Edited by eal at 09 Jun 03:11
eal
Lovin' it
VTCY VTCC VTBD

Antonio wrote:

Well, if it is properly set up, and you keep at FL200 or below, a P210 needs no more O2 than any unpressurized aircraft flying at FL100 or below.

Yes. But I noticed that after a long flight around FL090-FL100 cabin pressure, I arrive much less fatigued if I was on O2 than if I was not. It goes from “let’s crash at the hotel and deal with anything business or tourism tomorrow” to “we can have that meeting / touristic visit right now”. I hear some bizjet pilots do the same.

I got myself a portable oxygen generator, so I don’t have to deal with cylinders and refills, and since the only “cost” is a bit of electrical load (a grain of peanut powder compared to cost of the flight), I have no hesitation about using it anytime.

Antonio wrote:

A P210 is really a FL160-200 aircraft, not a FL180-220 one like a PA-46

Well, with O2 you can operate it as a FL200-240 aircraft ;-) The reduction of fuel flow (for similar TAS) at FL240 is significant, and increases safe range and/or safety margin (contingency fuel, “extra fuel”, etc) and/or operational flexibility.

ELLX

lionel wrote:

Well, with O2 you can operate it as a FL200-240 aircraft ;-)

Sure you can , but the aircraft is really not happy there.

One factor is of course cabin pressure, but the problem of O2 and fatigue in the context of cabin altitude is irrespective of aircraft type flown: it just relates to different flight altitudes depending on cabin differential pressure, if any.

The other factor is engine and airframe characteristics:

Yes you can fly a silver eagle at FL 230 , but cabin altitude will be FL125 and the engine will be flown at or near red-line with true airspeeds 20 KTAS lower than lower down. The superb climb perfomance of lower altitudes is all but lost. The only reason I can think of for flying that high is wx avoidance or extended range, but the aircraft is not a happy camper there. Furthermore, even if air is smooth, you have to be careful not to exceed the 167KIAS redline in the descent .

Yes you can fly a piston P210 at FL230, mine will fly at 200KTAS there, but it will take me 10 more minutes to climb from FL200 depending on temperature and weight, and there is still the same cabin alt issue. No improvement in fuel consumption vs FL190. One interesting aspect is if you do a high-power descent from there (necessary to maintain delta P) , and air is smooth, you can go all the way to the 200KIAS redline, trueing near 300KTS, but the standard McCauley prop will reach its high-pitch stop in those conditions above 220KTAS so RPM will be around 2500-2700, outside of the governing range: it is definitely not designed for 290KTAS flight, but this problem barely manifests itself below FL200.

A piston PA46 with the higher delta P and more efficient, higher-aspect-ratio wings (if you can fit them in your hangar, yourself in the cockpit, the aircraft in your runway, and the fuel budget in your wallet) is as happy 2000ft higher than the P210.

Perhaps @eal can attest also to the Jetprop.altitude performance.

Antonio
LESB, Spain

WilliamF wrote:

The right piston P210 maintained for years by the right P210 technician would be good enough for me!

From your earlier posts i was of the understanding that:

a) you did indeed own a P210, if only in pieces, and
b) you are familiar with aircraft projects…how’s your 206 getting along? Its not that different from a P210, especially if turboed

this makes you an excellent candidate to acquire a P210 project and turn the would into a will!

Antonio
LESB, Spain

Antonio wrote:

lionel wrote: Well, with O2 you can operate it as a FL200-240 aircraft ;-)

Sure you can , but the aircraft is really not happy there.

Yes you can fly a silver eagle at FL 230 , but cabin altitude will be FL125 and the engine will be flown at or near red-line with true airspeeds 20 KTAS lower than lower down.

Cabin altitude is where oxygen comes into play. You never fly a Silver Eagle near red-line (except max 5 min for takeoff), you fly it near yellow line. The loss of 20 KTAS is not my experience. I don’t think I lose more than 5 to 10 knots.

ELLX

lionel wrote:

at or near red-line

I meant engine redline temperature…what is it…ITT on the 250 engine? Is that not usually your power limiter at altitude ?

lionel wrote:

The loss of 20 KTAS is not my experience. I don’t think I lose more than 5 to 10 knots

I have never flown the SE, although I have read quite a lot! The propjet aviation forum was usually quoting exceeding 210KTAS at FL180 but only 190KTAS at FL220…I guess that is not your experience?

I imagine it depends on OAT at altitude and when you get to that temperature limit.

Antonio
LESB, Spain

The Jetprop (PT6-35 variant) ceiling is FL270. No issues getting there or staying there. With 5.3 psi cabin differential you will be at 9,500’ cabin altitude
The first 10k feet climb rate anything from 2k -3k FPM, fading to the last 2-3k feet at around 600-800 FPM depending on weight/ OAT.
E

eal
Lovin' it
VTCY VTCC VTBD

Antonio wrote:

I meant engine redline temperature…what is it…ITT on the 250 engine? Is that not usually your power limiter at altitude ?

Yes, the temperature is the limiting factor. 752°C. But it is not the red line, it is the yellow line. Red line is maximum take-off power (maximum 5 minutes), yellow line is maximum continuous power.

Antonio wrote:

I have never flown the SE, although I have read quite a lot! The propjet aviation forum was usually quoting exceeding 210KTAS at FL180 but only 190KTAS at FL220…I guess that is not your experience?

I rarely attain, yet alone exceed, 210ktas even around FL180. In April, I flew at FL240, I had 200ktas at FL240. Since I didn’t really fly higher than FL200 before, that is just anecdotal. I’ll try it this summer, and in the Mediterranean we’ll see what it gives at higher temperatures.

My planning rule of thumb is: MIN(165 kias, 200ktas – 1/2 ISA deviation), and that’s valid all year round up to FL200 (because I lack experience higher up to say if it valid or not).

One owner did more methodical trial “one particular day”. His numbers are (at maximum continuous power, temperature-limited):

  • 196ktas at FL230 ISA+12
  • 200ktas at FL190 ISA+11
  • 201ktas at FL170 ISA+11
  • 200ktas at FL150 ISA+10

Performance depends on several factors… FL and ISA deviation are the big ones, but quality of the pressure vessel also plays a role. If you leak more air, you take more (air) power off the engine for pressurisation, and you have less power available for propulsion. Also vertical wind component! With any vertical wind component, effectively you are climbing or descending just to hold the altitude. That can easily introduce a 10-15kts variation. About a month ago, I flew in strong wind, not very very far from mountains. Over 5-15 minutes, my TAS was oscillating between about 185 kts and 215 kts. At first I started to monitor everything very, very closely, but all parameters (except speed) were completely stable. In the end, I decided it was the effect at altitude of the mountain waves.

Last Edited by lionel at 09 Jun 11:46
ELLX
Sign in to add your message

Back to Top