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Anybody using Camguard? (merged)

I am using it, there is an outfit in Luxembourg who sells it. On an IO360 with the camshaft on top corrosion is a real threat. As for the oil I use the normal W80-W100 Aeroshell with added camguard. Specially in winter time when teh engine is not running every week this may help avoiding pitting/corrosion issues I believe...

EBST

I used it and saw reduction in steel. I think that it is a good product but only long term use can tell the full story.

Ben

We have being using for about 2 years as recommended by www.savvymx.com who i also use to stand on our shoulder and oversee all maintenance related issues and help us make good decisions about what is required and what is optional when it comes to annual's.

(Ps I have no connection to Savvy other than a happy UK customer who operates an N reg aircraft)

1) None of the additives in Camguard are in the Aeroshell 15W-50 or the Exxon Elite (or Mobil AV1).

We use 25 times the level of rust inhibitor that is in the AS 15W-50. If shell tried to increase the level of their inhibitor they would have bearing soft metal corrosion problems.

Shell and Exxon use phosphate ester anti-scuff in their oils. Shells is OK but it rapidly breaks down to an oil soluble phosphoric acid derivative and attacks copper and seals. They had to to add a huge amount of copper inhibitor prevent their customers from seeing 200-300ppm copper in their oil analysis. However the acid still attacks push-rod tube seals, valve cover gaskets (elastomeric) and mag cushions.

Exxon's anti-wear, TCP, is ineffective as an anti-wear. It is too stable. This is why the Elite fails the wear testing we performed (results on our website).

Don't even get me started on the use of PAO synthetic base oil in aviation oil. Mobil AV1 was a stupendous failure with 100% PAO base oil. And Aeroshell says we're not going to make the same mistake that Mobil made we are only going to use 50% PAO (the WORST possible base oil for aviation use).

Camguard does not neutralize acids. It contains a number of inhibitor additives that protect the various metals in the engine. It also prevents organic acids (the only kind of acids found in used aircraft oil) from forming. To neutralize acids, like automotive oils, we would have to use metallic overbased detergents. IF we used metallic detergents we would run the risk of creating metallic oxide deposits in the combustion chambers. Metal oxide deposits glow white hot and can lead to catastrophic preignition which can destroy an engine in moments. Aircraft engines use a lot of oil compared to auto engines.

Ed

Thank you Ed for the insight.

Don't even get me started on the use of PAO synthetic base oil in aviation oil. Mobil AV1 was a stupendous failure with 100% PAO base oil. And Aeroshell says we're not going to make the same mistake that Mobil made we are only going to use 50% PAO (the WORST possible base oil for aviation use).

Well, I very much would like to get your perspective. Basically you are saying that mineral oils are preferable over (semi-)synthetic oils when used with Camguard? This means that e.g. in Central Europe I have to switch between Aeroshell W80 in winter and W100 in summer. The UK I could probably stay on W100 the whole year.

Could you elaborate on what the advantages of mineral oils are? Having to replace the oil based on ambient temperature is an additional hassle but it might be one worth taking.

That's a great post, Ed

One problem with using a straight oil might be that, on the same trip within Europe, one might do a departure in 0C and a departure in +35C.

And, while this is not directly relevant because the oil temp is regulated with the bypass valve, one might be flying full power with an OAT of +35C (CHT reaching 420F briefly), or at perhaps 50% power at 20,000ft in -35C OAT (CHT of 320F, looking back at EDM700 logs).

Of the two multigrades in common use in Europe (AS15W50 or Exxon Elite) which would you say is better with Camguard?

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Come on guys, is there not enough to do? Filling in log books, ferrying back and forth to the workshop for service, medicals, validations, cleaning, database up dating, adjusting flight plan coding. Why add to the load when it is not necessary. Where does it say in the POM or the maintenance manual that the oil should be analysed, or that the oil should be changed every 25hours, or that we should add Cam guard. I have just switched from Multigrade to Aeroshell W80 on the advice of the workshop. Previously when I mentioned 25 hours oil changes and oil analysis they laughed.

Taking your post goathlandpilot slightly tongue in cheek and replying in the same way I would suggest your workshop gets a connection to the internet.

Oil analysis is brilliant. This

told me that something was badly wrong, and it turned out to be a ~5mm gap in the alternate air door; not closing properly. Subsequent samples validated that. Such rapid copper wear is obviously not desirable.

The last sample shows the big improvement in iron and chromium with Camguard. I will however need to see more samples to validate that, but looking at the values for these two back to 2005 I have never had such low values.

The cost of the analysis is around a tenner per oil change.

However the one thing I have just heard is that Camguard is not approved for turbocharged engines. Could that really be correct?

I would not say 25hr oil changes are that worthwhile - definitely not if you are paying workshop service rates for it (£500+ in my case). But if you can DIY then it's easy. I like to run to maybe 35hrs. Sometimes one has to work this with a long trip; if say I am at 20hrs and we do a trip to Greece that takes me to 40. But when I had run to 50-55hrs the oil analysis showed substantially increased wear rates - on both Shell 15W50 and Elite (both of which are very similar on the analysis). So based on my results (IO540-C4) I think 50hr changes is pushing things a little far. What is the benefit of reduced wear? Hard to say but perhaps will mean that at overhaul you need to throw away a lot fewer parts. When I had my engine rebuilt at 800hrs (for the Lyco crankshaft swap) the only parts in the engine which were outside NEW limits were the exhaust valve stems and the cam followers. Even the camshaft was within NEW limits after it was reground.

(note the dates on the analysis are American i.e. MM/DD/YY and the most recent is at the top)

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Some Multigrades (IIRC Bakers and Shell) do already have the camguard component in the oil as a stock component.

Point to note is that Camguard is very hygroscopic so unless you are doing enough hours (minimum of one per hour nearly every week) you are actually making things worse.

Again IIRC Camguard was mandated for some engines as without it the cams of some engines were spalling away in a few hundred hours.

Oddly enough I used to find that Exxon Elite created a lot of that light brown sludge, which was very visible around the oil fill hole, and on the Annual we found tons of it under the rocker covers.

AS 15W/50 doesn't do it.

And this is despite me flying every week, for at least an hour in the air, and I am hangared.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom
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