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ATC arguing with pilot re a request to turn to avoid

I had another conversation with a Radar Controller from Munich ATC:

- To declare an emergency is “B.S.” (his words)
- the pilot does not have to, never, fly into conditions that are or might be dangerous to the flight
- if the pilot turns aways from the weather, CB, TCU without having obtained a clearance then (his words again) he has no clearance, but has every right to do so.
- the pilot HAS to announce what he is doing
- if there was an accident or a near miss then ATCs safety office would deal with this, but it is clear that no pilot has to enter weather that is dangerous for the flight
- he has never heard that a report was filed because a pilot turned away from weather without a clearance.
- his wording “well, in that case you don’t have a clearance, but who gives a shxx”.

End of thread?

You found out what everybody knows.

It would be interesting to ask him what his actions would be if

  • an “English” pilot (who is obviously not a jet etc) asked for a heading to avoid
  • he looked at his wx radar image and saw nothing on it
  • a “German” airline pilot (who he knows personally) called him up unsolicited and in German said to him this English pilot must be smoking something because he can see (from his FL300+) all the way to the Med

If this ATCO was professional (as nearly all are) then I know the answer, which would be

  • the pilot is entitled to judge the flight conditions he can see out of his window
  • wx radar has limitations
  • the self appointed “German” policeman should mind his own business – especially as (unless flying an AWACS) he has no idea where the “English” pilot is and what level he is at – and would be ignored and possibly told to not clog up the frequency

That is what this thread is really about.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

That‘s not what your thread title implied. I think you wrote yourself into a box canyon :-)

Who cares about the harmless remark of some unknown airline pilot? Can that really keep you occupied so long?

Of course you know everything, but it might be interesting for others what a controller has to say about these situations.

Last Edited by at 27 Sep 15:52

I am sorry, but there had never been a German airline pilot (policeman) at FL300 (+) who had given the comment about the weather/ visibility/ Mediterranean.
Freq 119.275 belongs to Innsbruck Approach. They control the airspace up to FL165. The non identified pilot speaks definitely Austrian accent and he knew the woman controller (Carola) personally. So he was on that frequency and in the air but between GND and FL165. I guess he was a colleague controller flying a sailplane/ glider in that area

Last Edited by nobbi at 27 Sep 16:26
EDxx, Germany

Interesting. What is the geographical area under that frequency?

Also “seeing all the way to the Med” would have been a joke at FL165 around LOWI…

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

@Peter, pls see Austria AIP ENR 6.6 ATC sectors Index Chart

https://eaip.austrocontrol.at/lo/170915/Charts/ENR/LO_ENR_6_6_en.pdf

2.4. Transitflights (ex AIP Austria LOWI AD 2-16)

2.4.1. Flights crossing or proceeding along the Inn valley in the
area of the CTR LOWI or TMA LOWI 1-5 are subject to a clear-
ance from Innsbruck APP (119,275 MHZ) or Innsbruck TWR
(120,100 MHZ).
In the interest of safety also all other transitflights crossing the
Inn valley outside the CTR LOWI or below TMA LOWI 1-5 should
contact Innsbruck APP (119,275 MHZ) or Innsbruck TWR

Last Edited by nobbi at 27 Sep 17:34
EDxx, Germany

Thanks nobbi.

That’s a big area

What I am getting at is that the other pilot (who could see “all the way to the Med”, even though he was below FL165) could have been anywhere in there.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Yes, but you are focussing too much on rating over that other pilot. He really didn’t play any role in this episode. It’s the rest of the exchange between you and the ATCO which is interesting in many respects. It’s completely normal that these aspects get picked up here if you publish this video. Lots of interesting details there about less than optimal communication, mostly from the ATCO, but to some degree also from you. I think you have learned from this episode (and this thread), so all is good, no?

Mainz (EDFZ) & Egelsbach (EDFE), Germany

Sure. I suppose the (informed) view is that I should have explained more rather than used the brief (more or less standard) phrases. That doesn’t come naturally to me because I have had so many experiences with ATCOs who cannot understand me (maybe my ex-KGB Czech accent?) so I try to use standard phrases.

But even then I must ask: why is “to avoid” not sufficient? An ATCO who has access to wx radar also should know that a great deal of stuff is not shown on it at all. That icing pic I posted for bookworm in post 118 (some 3cm at its max point) was collected in about 5 mins, at 3000ft, near Lydd EGMD, at -5C, and the radar image was 100% clean. Vs rose from 75kt to about 110kt and the TB20 could only just fly at max power, 120kt. Clean radar image! I let that happen because I had an easy escape route via a descent.

Earlier on, to counter the allegations that I was fiddling things to get a direct to the destination (FORER), I knocked up another video which shows the point at which the RH turn in the track

was made. That RH turn, cleared by Innsbruck to NAXAV, was more like towards the destination, though still not quite (there was another later turn, visible on the full track). A rather boring video but it shows I was flying parallel to the filed route (P66) towards NIGEB and it shows the clearance to NAXAV which resulted in a RH turn in the video


Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Peter wrote:

Sure. I suppose the (informed) view is that I should have explained more rather than used the brief (more or less standard) phrases.

I suppose I might not fit in the ‘informed’ view as I’m not an IFR pilot and are used to very different weather conditions.

But my view is that if you wanted to learn something from this, then it would be the exact opposite! Instead of saying more, I’d have kept quiet when the told you to contact the next frequency and report your heading. You had all that you could possibly want or get from her, so move on to the next one. No matter what she said to you, you were always going to either be allowed or not allowed you heading on the next frequency and that was the only one that would matter. So any ‘barter’ on the first frequency was going to be irrelevant.

In other words, when you get what you want, that’s the time to stop talking! You can only talk yourself out of it at that point!

EIWT Weston, Ireland
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