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ATC arguing with pilot re a request to turn to avoid

What exact phrase would you have used?

Please keep this on the topic. Alleged past claims from alleged past threads etc etc just drive a discussion off the rails and then it has to be cleaned up.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Request 15 degrees to the left due to icing.

If that caused further questions, I would have pointed out that there are isolated patches of cloud and the aircraft is not deiced. The ATCO was clearly missing context and you were very sparse in your justification. On top of that the request was difficult to accommodate.

What is the difference between “request 15 degrees left to avoid” and “request present heading to avoid”? Both are used, especially if you are already on a heading to avoid.

A straight “icing” claim would have elicited the same sneering comment from that airline pilot at FL300+. Note the chronology: ATC got his “input” before looking at their wx source themselves.

There are two crucial differences in this case compared to normal pilot-ATC interaction. One is the “input” from the self appointed policeman airline pilot (quite possibly someone who hates Ryanair, but who can guess his motivation to try to drop another pilot in the sh*it) and the other is ATC claiming to see no weather on whatever data source they claimed to be looking at. In 11 years of flying IFR in Europe (2300hrs TT) I have never seen anything like this.

What does happen is ATC refusing a heading to avoid and getting pretty aggressive about it. I recall, near Bordeaux, avoiding CBs and TCUs at FL190 and unable to go any higher above solid IMC, and the ATCO was getting really loud with “the military commander is getting very angry” but I held the heading and eventually they backed down.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Peter wrote:

Note the chronology: ATC got his “input” before looking at their wx source themselves.

I don’t think so, since she was already “wondering about the weather together with Dominik” at that time.

Last Edited by europaxs at 25 Sep 08:23
EDLE

“Icing” is much more specific than “weather”. I don’t use the generic “weather” when it’s not obvious what it refers to.

I wonder how you can determine that the airplane pilot made a “sneering” comment without even understanding German. I see nothing wrong with what he said. He even pointed out that there was stratiform cloud. ATC’s response was inappropriate.

IMHO “due to icing” means you are presently getting icing. I wasn’t getting icing and was nowhere near getting icing. I was in VMC, so claiming to be in IMC would be a straight lie and then also I would not be able to ask for headings “to avoid” since everybody knows a TB20 doesn’t have radar.

IME, “icing” gets ATC seriously worried. Try it with London Control (who know what a TB20 is) and you get a very instant response… basically the waters part for you. So I tend to use “due to icing conditions below” or similar, in that situation. Not standard phraseology but should be understood by most. But not in this one where the job was a long game of avoiding buildups which were a good distance ahead which is IMHO a much better way to do it than to fly into one and then go crazy because you are getting airframe ice – above the Alps!

The other point is that when a pilot says “to avoid”, then AFAIK ATC is off the hook and can grant it. So there is little mileage for ATC to get difficult about it, especially when aircraft safety is in question. That is how the system works and that is how it has to work, because the ATCO goes home at the end of the shift but the pilot+passengers might not… The decisionmaking has to be kept in the cockpit. Just because some airlines abuse this, and just because some (presumably non low cost) airline pilot doesn’t like that, doesn’t change anything. The system cannot work differently.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

achimha wrote:

I see nothing wrong with what he said.

I do:

  1. Speaking about someone else on a radar frequency in a language that you expect them to not understand is rude
  2. The fact that he initiated this without being asked for his opinion is at least bad style, if not against radio communication rules
  3. He should mind his own business
  4. The tone of how he said it was actually rude as well, unless this completely escapes me due to his Austrian dialect. “Vo woas für’n Wetter red’t n der?” sounds more or less like “What is this guy smoking?” to me

For me, this exact video is very helpful for me in understanding weather avoidance in IFR flights. It clearly shows and proves why nobody other than the pilot in command must be responsbile for judging the actual weather in flight. It eliminates any doubt I might have had until now.

Safe landings !
EDLN, Germany

I checked your position when you first called about the avoidance heading. From that position (Weissenbach am Lech, a place I have flow by many times)) a track of 150 is a direct to Bolzano, and maybe that’s why she was a little bit suspicious that your “avoidance heading” was not so much about the weather.

But whatever, I would not take that episode so serious. The airline pilot just wanted to chat a bit, and, as others have said – it was not Innsbruck Radar that had a problem with that heading, it was the italians.

Last Edited by at 25 Sep 11:49

I would just like to thank Peter for posting this video. I am a low time VFR pilot and I learn a tremendous amount from this forum which is very well run and informative.

In general terms people on this forum should remember be as courteous as possible otherwise people won’t bother to post questions or situations like this. For example, if I had one of my “160 total hours newbie” questions, some of the responses I’ve read on this thread would tend to put me off posting. I also think that with the amount of time Peter puts into this forum moderating, posting, starting new topics, etc, everybody should be bloody polite to him at least! – If Peter goes off in a huff we’ll lose a fantastic resource!

United Kingdom
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