If I got something like this I would have asked for extended vectoring and left it to ATC to fit me in, but the problem is that VFR traffic can’t do that (generally). When I am returning to Shoreham and I find 6 in the circuit, I will just leave the area and come back 15 mins later. There is no point in trying to fit into that lot, some of whom are doing 60kt, some are so far out they need French passports, and some lie about where they are in order to get an earlier landing clearance. Airports tend to be like petrol stations… it’s manic for a bit and then you get a quieter bit. In this case she should have asked for an orbit in the vicinity, IMHO. Would ATC have had an issue with that?
However nobody should just crash a plane in VMC. Even the wind + direction changes should not be enough for a stall/spin etc. Somehow she lost a lot of airspeed at low level and didn’t notice it.
I think the difference between this airport and Shoreham or even my base is that this airport (as alioth described) is in Class B airspace with Southwest, American, Delta and Jetblue operations. The scheduled CAT traffic is likely pretty much continuous for extended periods and to loiter around VFR for a while you’re probably going to switch to Approach frequency, go off for a while, then back to Tower, then who knows what again… i.e. lots of screwing around. Better I think in that circumstance to fly 6 nm (let’s say 3 minutes) to a different airport outside of the Class B wedding cake where you can land without hassles, free of cost, no other issues and escape the craziness. I can’t understand actually why a Cirrus driver would have chosen Houston Hobby in the first place, note the highways adjacent to the nearby alternates, but maybe there is a reason I don’t understand.
First of all, ATC is crystal clear here, no issues whatsoever on the audio front.
IMHO the first clue to something being amiss is at the very beginning of the recording, where ATC says ‘following traffic is a 737 with an 80kt overtake’. The important part here is the ‘80 kt overtake’. AFIK Vref for a 737 is around 140 kts, so she must be flying around 60 kts. Which is simply not what you do flying into this kind of airport and, I imagine, also not what ATC expected, given this was a Cirrus. Flying into airports with lots of jet traffic in the US you are expected to keep your speed up as much as possible, otherwise the sequencing doesn’t work. If you’re flying a Super Cub ATC will sequence you differently from, say, a C210. Of course, if you’ve spent your entire flying life in some quiet part of the country, you may not aware of that.
The main issue I would have with ATC here is that they – by trying to be helpful – overloaded her and kept changing the rwy assignment. Again, this is nothing unusual in itself (happens all the time around here), but if you’re not used to this and/or prepared for it then your workload can quickly go through the roof. I know, because I learned to fly in an environment like that! One thing I don’t quite understand is why they didn’t ask her to fly half mile offset. It’s an instruction that was common years ago, perhaps it’s not done anymore. For those who don’t know: it means that you fly the approach half a mile offset (right or left, depending on ATC instruction) in parallel with faster traffic that would overtake you and then slot in for the landing.
In general, I’m with @Silvaire here. Going away to a quieter field would have been the better course of action. In any case, a very sad outcome.
172driver wrote:
One thing I don’t quite understand is why they didn’t ask her to fly half mile offset. It’s an instruction that was common years ago
I’ve been asked to do it on occasion within the last 10 years.
BTW I looked up the number of operations at Hobby, 560/day
172driver wrote:
The important part here is the ‘80 kt overtake’. AFIK Vref for a 737 is around 140 kts, so she must be flying around 60 kts.
That’s unreasonable. 60 kts is below the threshold speed even for a measly C172!
I imagine ATC was talking airspeed?
petakas wrote:
She was trying, she was responsive, she was calm but these qualities clearly were not enough when you’re turning left, in a higher G turn (higher stall speed) with wind rapidly changing to tailwind with gusts (IAS reducing until aircraft hull catches up in the air mass it flies)
petakas wrote:
low and slow in a climbing pitch while banking tight (as stupidly instructed) left and the gusty wind switching to direct full tailwind at the worst moment
Peter wrote:
Even the wind + direction changes should not be enough for a stall/spin etc.
There seems to be a misconception about the effects of wind on a turning plane here, and since it has been mentioned 2 1/2 times now, I think it is important to look into it. This has been hotly debated on some pilot forums, I hope we can do it quicker. ;)
The plane only moves relative to the airmass that it is flying in, even though we as pilots usually tend to take earth as a reference system for some strange reason. If you start moving that airmass uniformly (i.e. no gusts), the plane will still not “know” that the airmass it is flying in is moving. If you fly a normal, coordinated 360° circle, the plane will not be accelerated or decelerated on opposite “ends” of the 360 (putting it in quotation marks because obviously a circle has no ends). Proof: If you fly circles in a Piper Cub in a 60 kt wind, you will not fall out of the sky after a half-circle because your hull has to “catch up with the airmass”. But you will of course drift with the wind as you fly. I recommend page 6-3 of the free FAA Flying Handbook for example if you want more details:
What gets some pilots in wind conditions is their desire to fly a turning track with reference to the earth, and when they see that the plane unexpectedly drifts, they will try to counteract that tendency, unfortunately mostly by putting in rudder. On a base-to-final turn, or manoeuvering close to the ground after a go-around, needless to say that it is very dangerous to fly uncoordinated like this.
172driver wrote:
The main issue I would have with ATC here is that they – by trying to be helpful – overloaded her and kept changing the rwy assignment
It’s not the ATC’s job to fly the plane. The ATC cannot “overload” anyone, they aren’t flying the planes. It’s the PIC’s responsibility not to get overloaded, and if it happens for any reason, he/she should get the load down somehow. To me it doesn’t look like she was overloaded at all. The first thing the brain do when overloaded/stressed, is to phase out hearing, you simply stop reacting to audible clues and instructions. She had perfect hearing all the way, acted calmly and did all the right things. To me it looks like she did everything right, very much on top of things, despite the messy ATC. But she wasn’t a very good pilot, and that killed her.
I mean, the ATC could do a better job obviously, but ultimately the very handling of an aircraft is the sole responsibility of the PIC, and it cannot be any other way. A poor ATC is no excuse for simply falling out of the sky. They can be blamed for collisions in the air, or on the ground, but not this.
LeSving wrote:
I mean, the ATC could do a better job obviously, but ultimately the very handling of an aircraft is the sole responsibility of the PIC, and it cannot be any other way. A poor ATC is no excuse for simply falling out of the sky. They can be blamed for collisions in the air, or on the ground, but not this.
It’s not an excuse, but can be definitely a contributing factor to the error chain!
The fact he could see she was too high on one approach should probably have given ATC a clue that the pilot was a little inexperienced or flustered.
The speed thing is a red herring. The 737 could easily be at 160kts, and I don’t think it was intended to be an accurate figure, he just said it to emphasise his point.
But at the end of the day if the NTSB is correct and the flaps were retracted at an insufficient airspeed a pilot lost their life by mishandling the aeroplane, which is tragic.
Stress can do a lot of things though. The pilots on here that attend Simulator training will know how the sim instructors load you up in the training. Even rather experienced and competent pilots will make mistakes eventually, we all have different capacity.
