Avoiding high FRAPORT and HANDLING costs in Greece

Peter wrote:

Greece is such a perfect case for GA, with the island airports and the ferries which take for ever…

… and the high disposable income per capita…

I think 100€ doesn’t entirely kill SEP travelling to Greece, but 200 pretty much would. Remember it’s not a totally rational thing. If these 200€ fuel stops (Corfu, an anavoidable fuel stop for most) remain with us, then a lot of badmouthing will make the rounds (rightly so) this summer and will ruin the reputation of Greece as a GA destination. You will see. And I am not talking about the British 10-pound gang (they won’t fly to Greece anyway).

But what will kill GA there even more will be the reputation of arbitrariness in charging fees, without the customer being able to verify these through some pricelist. THAT will really get people disgusted.

Let’s hope the AOPA Greece manages to sort things out (but it won’t happen this year I say). They deserve our support. But of course, without any local GA, there will be no AOPA Greece for long.

Thanks to AOPA Hellas and their contacting Fraport/Swissport this double charge for PPR will be corrected.

boscomantico wrote:

But what will kill GA there even more will be the reputation of arbitrariness in charging fees, without the customer being able to verify these through some pricelist. THAT will really get people disgusted.

Absolutely. But this also has a lot to do with what Aviathor said, a bit bluntly sure, but for the airports there it appears very much to be the case.

Aviathor wrote:

We’re just not welcome in Greece anymore, so why bother?

Airports who care about GA will not fleece them or try to get money out of them they don’t deserve. Airports who care about GA will not adjust their opening hours to the two scheduled services which arrive per day but offer proper opening hours. Well, looking at Sitia for instance? And many others which have 2 hours opening slots? What is going on at this airport the rest of the time? Everyone go home? This is infrastructure abuse by lazy people. How many do they need to stay open for GA? One guy at ATC who is there anyway, one customs agent and someone to open the doors?

Greece could be a GA paradise if they finally got their act together, instead they appear to go back to their old ways?

So what is so wrong about Aviathor’s statement. If we are welcome at these airports, we would be treated as clients, not as flies who get swatted with the big bills.

Mooney_Driver wrote:

Airports who care about GA will not adjust their opening hours to the two scheduled services which arrive per day but offer proper opening hours.

A little anecdote about Mostar.

I went to Mostar the day prior to the Braç fly-in last September. Upon arrival I was told the opening hours for the next day, which did not match my expectations given the prospective restricted opening hours of Braç due to the runway work that was going on (actually Braç were supposed to open to accommodate the EuroGA arrivals). Mostar would close too early for me to fly directly to Braç, and I was close to minimum fuel (Mostar does not have AVGAS)

So I shared my concern with the OPS person. He came back to me 15 minutes later and told me they would adjust their opening hours to my needs.

How’s that for service?

That’s the kind of country I would like to fly in.

Mooney_Driver wrote:

Well, looking at Sitia for instance? And many others which have 2 hours opening slots? What is going on at this airport the rest of the time? Everyone go home? This is infrastructure abuse by lazy people. How many do they need to stay open for GA?

In Greece it doesn’t make a difference if a state-owned airport will serve only GA or commercial flights. Normally a Greek airport needs, per shift, at least the following: one guy at the Tower (ATC/AFISO), one as an Air traffic safety electronics personnel (ATSEP), one for telecoms (flight plan submission etc, who will be the AFISO at an AFIS airport), one electrician, 2-3 drivers-firefighters per vehicle, plus possibly a duty officer (airport inspections, paperwork etc) and police for the security checks. They have to be 1 hour prior to half hour after the opening hours and also be present for non-scheduled medical-related (mainly) openings, too. So Sitia for example needs around 50hr per week and I believe this is served by one shift.

Aviathor wrote:

That’s the kind of country I would like to fly in.

Me too. Actually, I think the former Yugoslav republics are amongst the most attractive to fly to in all of Europe.

atmilatos wrote:

In Greece it doesn’t make a difference if a state-owned airport will serve only GA or commercial flights.

Well. How do e.g. the Croatian airports do it? They are not that busy at least 6 months per year yet they are open mostly all day, quite a few are H24. Bulgaria too. Plovdiv for instance has about 6 scheduled services per week yet it is open H24. So is Burgas, which is not really busy outside July-August.

Closing down airports which most of the time actually have a skeleton crew there anyhow (I am sure the tower is occupied all the time) simply is the reflection of a very bad attitude to service combined with decades of bureaucratically induced paralysis. Where there was a will, there would be ways, but it needs something which many in this business lack, will and flexibility.

No, it is not necessary to keep a full crew on stand by on an airport at all times, provided there is a manned tower or other means of contact. The moment a flight plan is filed to the airport and the ETA is known, that one person can call whom he needs depending on the flight. Most GA does not need firefighting, internal flights do not need customs and immigration, doing ATC and AIS can be done by the guy in the tower. And unless they lock up the terminal (which I doubt very much) whoever has to sit guard can be tasked with other stuff such as cashing in landing fees.

Sorry, but stuff like this make me angry. Maybe it would be a nice saving to pay the folks by the hour…. not pay them full time salaries for working 3 flights per week or how many they have during off season. Bet they would like more traffic all of a sudden?

It is getting worse and worse.

I am trying to organize an entry via Kerkyra. Their latest NOTAM says you have to get the handling agent to obtain PPR.
Just got the following quotation from Goldair.

It adds up to 356 Euros – and that’s without explicit mention of the cost of an IFR slot…

Basic Handling fees: 20 Euros (Special price for AOPA/ IAOPA members)
Ramp Transportation: 15 Euros per movement for crew / 15 Euros per movement per PAP.
PPR : 29.75 Euros
Landing and Parking fees: Approx. 140 Euros (Since you have a PAP on board)
Pax Tax: 12.51Euros per departing pap
Distribution Fees to third parties payment 10%
Credit Card commission 3.5%.
To all above prices you have to add 24% VAT since yr flt is private.

I absolutely HATE to be ripped off like this…
We are looking at last minute airline tickets as I post this :-(

So you have to choose between “Robin Hood” airports and “Sloppy Soviet Bureaucrat” aerodromes.!