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Brussels blocking UK from using EGNOS for LPV - and selection of alternates, and LPV versus +V

Off_Field wrote:

Yes, this seems to make no real world difference to our equipment operation.

Absolutely – but if I fly an NDB-approach I have to respect the minima for that NDB-approach even if I know that the GPS overlay in my black box is far more accurate and would allow for far lower minima…

Same will be true for former LPV approaches that are degraded to LNAV/VNAV

Last Edited by Malibuflyer at 21 Dec 15:23
Germany

I can see the UK losing the keys to the encrypted signal (which I am sure it gets from the US for free, so this is moot) if they stop paying into Galileo, but it is pretty strange that the UK would have lost access to the free Galileo+EGNOS signal also.

Sounds like a contractual cockup, if the other places mentioned get access for free. Of course they get access “technically”; the signal goes everywhere within the satellite coverage.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Malibuflyer wrote:

but if I fly an NDB-approach I have to respect the minima for that NDB-approach

At EGMD (Lydd) the NDB 21 minimum (408’) is lower than the RNP 21 minimum (428’). In future, I will clearly ‘respect’ it!

Rochester, UK, United Kingdom

Putting aside RNP (OCA 440ft) at Lydd, funnily the NDB minima (non-precision OCA 420ft) is even lower than ILS minima (precision OCA 430ft) but that has to do with offset & obstacles on 210 track, while offset has to do with DA141

Then once you start adding NDB MDA 50ft, ILS PEC 50ft and personal, company and recommended minima and rounding the whole lot you will get an MDA just as high as MSA, the ideal place to do revalidation tests

Last Edited by Ibra at 21 Dec 16:25
Paris/Essex, France/UK, United Kingdom

Does South Africa not pay anything into EGNOS?

This whole topic seems to originate from here local copy

If we do not reach an agreement with the EU on a service access agreement for EGNOS, UK users will no longer be able to use EGNOS services for aviation or research purposes and EGNOS Working Agreements (EWAs) will no longer be recognised.

One interesting point is that Alderney EGJA is not in the EU but has LPV, and I am damn sure they are not paying

Galileo is worth zero, zilch to the UK. It does nothing more than Navstar and was just a huge white elephant – a purely politically motivated project which has just shown itself to be worthless. EGNOS is the only thing of value and perhaps the UK could set up its own; it can be just a transponder you rent on a geostationary satellite, and a ground station or two. The problem would be with getting existing avionics to use the signal.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Has the UK decided now that GPS is usable and/or a priority for instrument approaches? I thought that they were still insisting on NDB/VHF as primary approach technology. At least I understood that up until quite recently (<1-2 yr) there were essentially no GPS approaches in the UK anyway.

LSZK, Switzerland

The UK has had many GPS/LNAV approaches, for many years, but LPV is rare.

Reportedly a number of UK airfields were going to get LPV in 2021 but that’s now being shelved, because EGNOS is controlled externally.

It’s really bizzare. With a bit of sensibility, the CAA isn’t going to force the de-publication of the procedures, so they can continue.

It doesn’t affect me personally, with the KLN94

Long live ILS…

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

EGNOS offers its services outside of the EU :
https://www.gpsworld.com/egnos-operations-introduced-in-mediterranean-region-medusa/

From the EGNOS FAQ https://www.gsa.europa.eu/european-gnss/egnos/faq :

How much should I pay for EGNOS? What services are available?

The signal from the EGNOS Services are free to anyone with an EGNOS receiver. Users can rely on the EGNOS Safety-of-Life Service for flying final approach procedures when all certificates are valid (aircraft, receiver, pilot training). In order for your airport to publish a procedure, the local ANSP is recommended to enter into a contractual relationship with the EGNOS Service Provider to ensure that liability issues are covered in the case of an incident or accident

LFOU, France

The signal from the EGNOS Services are free to anyone with an EGNOS receiver. Users can rely on the EGNOS Safety-of-Life Service for flying final approach procedures when all certificates are valid (aircraft, receiver, pilot training).

Clearly that “deal” does not apply in some cases, where you want to “exert pressure”

This was posted on a UK site by someone who claims to work in the industry:

Whereas some states have one agreement with the European Satellite Service Provider (ESSP) the UK wouldn’t go that route so every Air Navigation Service Provider (ANSP) has to sign an EGNOS Working Agreement with the ESSP.
All this is a service level agreement which sets out most importantly the NOTAM proposal arrangements. Without this, continuity of service (and interruptions) cannot be notified. If the UK Govt had signed a State EWA then all the individual ones could have been dispensed with. However, that won’t help now as the EU wants a €30m fee to continue the agreements.

However the UK is hosting 2 EGNOS monitoring stations which are key to the whole EGNOS system, especially the N European coverage, so threatening a country hosting these stations with a de-authorisation for the use of the EGNOS signal is bizzare. If someone did that to me, I would disconnect the power to them immediately.

It will be interesting to see how this pans out. I am certain the UK would pay £30M for the use of EGNOS, but presumably the option to do that is not on the table until the fishing stuff has been agreed Or perhaps the sticking point is that the DfT would want to recover the 30M (minus the cost of running the monitoring stations) from all the airfields which have LPV – that will totally kill LPV in the UK.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

“until the fishing stuff has been agreed.”
The terms on which Heath took the UK into the EU devastated the Scottish fishing communities. Fortunately the oil industry took up the workers. Now it may be ending.
The area went from solid Conservative to solid SNP. It has now partly returned to Conservative.
Leaving the EU but letting it keep the fish would send a message that the French and Spanish fisher people matter more to the UK Government than the Scottish.
With an effect on Scottish Independence support.
I am a lifelong believer in independence, but have never been an SNP member and do not approve of many of their policies and actions.

Maoraigh
EGPE, United Kingdom
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