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Can one file Eurocontrol IFR flight plans for Class G?

Peter wrote:

Eurocontrol = IFPS = CFMU.

The sort of flight plans you file with the euroga router / autorouter.

For example you cannot get a FP to validate (and therefore you cannot file it) from EGKA to EGMD at 2000ft. That is wholly in Class G. Can that be done in Norway or Sweden?.

Yes, you can. I do it all the time. We’ve been through this over and over again on EuroGA.

If you take off from an AFIS airport, they will relay a route clearance, all the way to the destination. If you take off from an airport without ATS, you call ATC in the air to activate your flight plan and then you will be given the clearance.

ESKC (Uppsala/Sundbro), Sweden

Anders wrote:

Yes – once you have established communication with ATS you will receive a clearance and from there on you do no longer need to worry about controlled airspace and restricted areas.

Actually, you do need to worry about restricted areas when flying in class G as your clearance is only valid in controlled airspace.

ESKC (Uppsala/Sundbro), Sweden

We’ve been through this over and over again on EuroGA.

Well, not when you look at the real detail:

Actually, you do need to worry about restricted areas when flying in class G as your clearance is only valid in controlled airspace.

So, to me this reads as if

  • you have managed to file an “I” FP via IFPS
  • ATC does have access to it all along the route
  • OCAS, you are on your own
  • you need to obtain an explicit clearance for any CAS (but the ATC there has your flight plan – correct?)

which is the same as the UK except the 2nd point (they don’t have the FP because London Control has chucked it away, and LC doesn’t do OCAS anyway).

I would ask a further Q: let’s say you now want a climb FL150, say due wx. Will that work right away?

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Peter, when you flew to Colmar in the end of last month, I am sure you flied an IFR flight plan through Class G airspace. I know I did:

LFPT N0170F070 ALIMO B13 RLP G21 EPL LFGA

That last part over the Vosges is definitely class G below FL115.

LFPT, LFPN

Peter wrote:

So, to me this reads as if

you have managed to file an “I” FP via IFPS
ATC does have access to it all along the route

Yes.

OCAS, you are on your own

That depends on what you mean. You have FIS, which outside the UK typically is radar based so it can provide traffic information. In Sweden it is actually provided by the same ATC controllers that work the CAS sector above. You will be given handovers both to adjacent FIS sectors and to ATC for controlled airspace.

you need to obtain an explicit clearance for any CAS (but the ATC there has your flight plan – correct?)

No. You do not need an explicit clearance. You just fly. You almost don’t notice when you enter and leave controlled airspace — it is usually coincident with handovers anyway. It is most obvious when leaving as the controller will (typically) say “No traffic reported in uncontrolled airspace”.

I would ask a further Q: let’s say you now want a climb FL150, say due wx. Will that work right away?

In Sweden, yes.

Last Edited by Airborne_Again at 06 Dec 14:36
ESKC (Uppsala/Sundbro), Sweden

Peter wrote:

I would ask a further Q: let’s say you now want a climb FL150, say due wx. Will that work right away?

We had that on the way to Kjeller flying through Sweden. Flying at FL90, there was a cloud layer with tops around FL95. So I asked to climb (I think to FL100), which was met by a “stand by”, and then a handoff to another frequency of Sweden Control who had our details. The whole transition from class G to class C took maybe 20 seconds.

Soon after we could have descended again, but I didn’t want to cause any hassles and so I stayed in class C.

Last Edited by Rwy20 at 06 Dec 14:36

Peter wrote:

Can you file a FP in say Norway which is in Class G and halfway passes through some CAS and you have an implied clearance through that CAS? That is what a Eurocontrol flight plan would give you – an implied whole-route clearance.

You can go to ippc.no and file a plan and get automatic routing at the same time, in G or C/D, doesn’t matter. For VFR, there is no autorouter, but you can file plans . At least VFR you are handed over from one to another, and in contact with Norway control in between. Never tried IFR, but I would assume it is exactly the same.

But implied clearance? Is that even possible when arriving from G? Does a “controlled flight” automatically imply clearances? I don’t think so. You need a clearance to enter a controlled airspace no matter what as far as I know. Once in controlled airspace, you have no option, so implied clearance is kind of a strange expression to use. The exact same “implied” clearance would exist when flying VFR exclusively in controlled airspace, at least if the FP has alt or FL included, not just “VFR”.

ENVA ENOP ENMO, Norway

LeSving wrote:

But implied clearance? Is that even possible when arriving from G? Does a “controlled flight” automatically imply clearances? I don’t think so. You need a clearance to enter a controlled airspace no matter what as far as I know. Once in controlled airspace, you have no option, so implied clearance is kind of a strange expression to use. The exact same “implied” clearance would exist when flying VFR exclusively in controlled airspace, at least if the FP has alt or FL included, not just “VFR”.

There is of course no implied clearance in the US sense. What Peter means by the term is that once you have an IFR clearance to your destination, you can leave and reenter controlled airspace without any additional explicit clearance. (Or enter controlled airspace initially if departing an airport in class G.) That is not the case in the UK. If you leave controlled airspace in the UK, your clearance will be void. You can’t reenter controlled airspace without a new explicit clearance.

Last Edited by Airborne_Again at 06 Dec 15:14
ESKC (Uppsala/Sundbro), Sweden

If you leave controlled airspace in the UK, your clearance will be void. You can’t reenter controlled airspace without a new explicit clearance.

You can in Scotland, generally. And that is UK, though a people of people up there with names similar to a fish would rather not

Another way to look at an “implied clearance” is that upon loss of radio contact you can legitimately set 7600 and continue, and land at the filed time.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Peter wrote:

You can in Scotland, generally. And that is UK, though a people of people up there with names similar to a fish would rather not

So it is a London ACC thing rather than a UK thing, then?

ESKC (Uppsala/Sundbro), Sweden
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