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Cessna T207A thoughts? (also other Cessna 2xx types)

A probably performed remanufacture doesn’t make sense because the engine and airframe TT are the same? Then I wonder why there is an -R in the engine serial number.

Maybe it got the remanufactured engine since new.

Last Edited by Snoopy at 08 Mar 17:00
always learning
LO__, Austria

Snoopy wrote:

The engine TT remained the same but the TSO was reset. The question is if the national authority would accept this engine at 2700h TT and 150h TSO for commercial applications.

Yes. If the overhaul was an actual complete overhaul according to manufacturer’s specs. There still seems to be some doubt about this.

ESKC (Uppsala/Sundbro), Sweden

Snoopy wrote:

I’ll have to go see the plane and logs in any case anyway ;)

Yes and do so in the presence of someone who can read them and interpret them.

Unless there is another explanation it looks like the plane has indeed a remanufactured engine which in that case has 2710 hours since remanufacture and 146 hours since whatever they try to sell as an overhaul.Now the crucial question will be, when was the remanufacture and what is the status in terms of hours since a real overhaul was done. If the overhaul of 2015 has reset the TBO counter to zero, there is no reason why the CAA should not accept the plane, if however the overhaul was years before, you may run into problems if the CAA is insisting on calendar TBO as well. However, if the 2015 overhaul has not reset the hours, then at least the Remaining time (which is hopeful anyway) would be fraudulent.

As I’ve said it before, before there is no word from someone who can read those docs properly and decide what is what, all speculation here is for not much.

LSZH(work) LSZF (GA base), Switzerland

The last couple of posts clear it up, sincere thanks for the explanation!

Before the present owner the engine underwent a remanufacture/rebuild (indicated by “-R”) and in 05/2015 a field or factory overhaul where cylinders (?), magnetos, alternator and fuel pump where exchanged.

The engine TT remained the same but the TSO was reset. The question is if the national authority would accept this engine at 2700h TT and 150h TSO for commercial applications.

AND, now another question arises. If the engine was remanufactured, why is the engine TT and airframe TT the same? I’ll have to go see the plane and logs in any case anyway ;)

Quoting the ad again:

Engine serial number: 291620-R (so it has been remanufacture overhauled before indicated by the “-R” in the serial).
Engine Total Time (TT): 2710h
Engine TSO (Time Since Overhaul: 146h (146 hours since an overhaul at a repair station or factory overhaul)
Last engine overhaul: 05/2015 (date of overhaul at repair station or factory overhaul)
Remaining Time on Engine: Until 05/2039

always learning
LO__, Austria

I got this from a highly regarded US engine shop:

The factory is the only entity which can remanufacture an engine. That is generally done from an engine core to Factory New Limits. It is not uncommon for the same data plate to be used and an -R put after the serial number. They generally do not install a data plate with a different serial number from the core. This would have a new logbook and it would read zero time since remanufacture by Lycoming.

Any zero time engine that is done in the field or by a repair station like us is considered zero time since overhaul, even if it is overhauled to the same spec’s as a factory reman.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

I believe the terms overhaul and rebuild/remanufacture are defined in FAA regs in relation to engine work, but I’m about to leave on a trip so cannot look it up now. An overhauled engine has 0 hrs SMOH but keeps its logbook so you know the total time. The definition of an overhaul does not mandate that all parts of the engine are brought to new limits, only to wear limits, so that makes sense. A rebuild or remanufacture brings all components to new limits and gives the engine a new logbook. Accordingly the time on any used components is no longer tracked.

The interesting thing to me about that system is that for rebuild/remanufacture it does not explicitly address the issue of fatigue accumulating on some components with now unrecorded total time in service, leaving that up to the shop to figure out: a remanufacture can only be done by an authorized shop, based on procedures for a certain type of engine, and for example certain types of crack prone crank cases tend to be replaced.

When I bought my plane, the fact that the engine had never been apart was attractive to me because if and when overhaul time comes I’ll have a low TTIS engine with records on component work performed. The only issue I have is that the engine was built in 1971… despite running well, using little oil and everything else being fine!

Last Edited by Silvaire at 08 Mar 13:33

Airborne_Again wrote:

Is there any regulatory difference between using an engine with TT=0 and an engine with TT>0 but TSMOH=0? I wasn’t aware that there is any, but some parts of this discussion seem to imply that there is.

Neither am I. In both cases you get fully credited with the TBO time and calendar. The only difference is the engine total time which in most cases is irrelevant.

LSZH(work) LSZF (GA base), Switzerland

Mooney_Driver wrote:

I’ll try to answer that to my knowledge, Silvaire or others please correct if I say something wrong.

I agree with what you write, but my question was different. Let me rephrase it:

Is there any regulatory difference between using an engine with TT=0 and an engine with TT>0 but TSMOH=0? I wasn’t aware that there is any, but some parts of this discussion seem to imply that there is.

Last Edited by Airborne_Again at 08 Mar 12:11
ESKC (Uppsala/Sundbro), Sweden

Airborne_Again wrote:

I’m slightly confused by the “zero-time” discussion. Is there any difference from a maintenance/operational point of view between an engine which has been “zero-houred” and an engine which has “just” undergone an overhaul according to the manufacturer’s instructions?

I’ll try to answer that to my knowledge, Silvaire or others please correct if I say something wrong.

Engines have a total time since they first were installed in any airplane. Once they reach TBO limit or once there are signs that a complete overhaul is necessary, there are several ways to accomplish this. In adds, this time is referred to as TT or Total Time.

- Field overhaul or overhaul at a repair station: As Silvaire has indicated, those overhauls will entrail getting the engine into manufacturers limits and usually involve new cylinders and quite a lot of other new parts but usually mean that the hull and the crankshaft as well as other servicable components within tolerance will be reused. In such a case, TT will remain untouched, TSO or TSMOH would mean the hours since the overhaul was done. An engine like that has the full 12 year / 2000 hour or whatever it is life potential.

- Factory Overhaul: Same as overhaul at a repair station but possibly with more new parts, yet TT still remains untouched, TSO is 0/0 after it is done.

- Remanufacture : Engines like that go back to the manufacturer where they are remanufactured to new standards. In that case, also TT gets reset to zero, the rest applies as in a field overhaul.

For most of our enignes a field overhaul or an overhaul at a repair station is a much more economical yet completely viable way. I’ve had my engine overhauled at a repair station to 0/0 TBO (time and calendar).

When buying an airplane you should be darn sure what has been done.

LSZH(work) LSZF (GA base), Switzerland

Snoopy wrote:

The ad says
Engine TT 2710h
Engine TSO 146h
Last engine overhaul 05/2015
Remaining time on engine Until 05/203
This is a bit misleading… instead of TSO it should say “Since last repair/top overhaul” etc…

That is the question and it HAS to be completely answered to find out where you are with it.

TSO means for me since an overhaul which resets TBO both calendar and hours, particularly the next sentence “Last overhaul” would indicate a field overhaul at least, otherwise the remaining time would be wrong.. A top overhaul alone is NOT reason to write TSO, that information would not only be misleading but false. Yet preciously many sellers have no idea about this and copy others who have but really want to cheat.

There is no other way than take the whole documentation to a savvy guy at a CAMO or other maintenance organisation and let them go over it with a fine tooth comb. THen you know where you are, before that everything else is guesswork.

LSZH(work) LSZF (GA base), Switzerland
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