USFlyer wrote:
Which Cessna, which Cirrus? There is a big difference between a 172 with steams/125ktas cruise and and a SR22T with glass/210ktas cruise and a FL250 ceiling.
According to the article quote by Snoopy it was a 172S. Doesn’t say glass or steam….. IMHO that’s a pretty dumb argument anyway. Btw, the Cirrus was an SR20 for all I know. Whatever – for all we know flying ANY a/c VFR into the kind of wx this chap faced was tantamount to suicide.
There have been a few VMC into IMC accidents in Cirruses.
Don’t pretty much all Cirruses (certainly recent ones) have good autopilots? If I were in a VMC to IMC condition in such an aircraft, my first though would be to turn on the autopilot. It must be reasonably straightforward to at least engage a heading hold or wing leveler mode, which will at least keep you the right way up (and massively reduce workload) while you figure out what you must do next. (In fact when I lived in Texas, if I were ever flying anywhere IFR in an autopilot equipped aircraft, I’d routinely use it – it just hugely cut down on workload even if all it could do was follow the heading bug).
The US AOPA had an accident analysis video involving (IIRC) a recent SR22 which went VFR into IMC, killing all on board – and the pilot had at least a few hours in the aircraft, and flew around erratically in IMC for a good half hour or so before he crashed – with a perfectly good autopilot that could have been used to get him out of trouble.
alioth wrote:
If I were in a VMC to IMC condition in such an aircraft, my first though would be to turn on the autopilot. It must be reasonably straightforward to at least engage a heading hold or wing leveler mode, which will at least keep you the right way up (and massively reduce workload) while you figure out what you must do next.
Amen to that. But the guy came from a C172 which may or may not have had an AP (not many I have flown have).
If it was a 172S, it most certainly had a KAP 1xxx or better.
This accident did not happen because of “Cirrus or Cessna”, I am very sure. While it is always a factor of not having much experience on a new type a SR20-G3 has such exquisite avionics that will fly you through 75 percent of all weather.
But if he really flew VFR into freezing rain/severe icing he would have killed himself in any SEP. Once you are INSIDE the severe icing stuff, you cannot fly on autopilot, no matter which one. If you leave it on you will crash even sooner! Really every autopilozt manual I have ever seen says: switch the A/P off in icing conditions! That’s the only way to feel what the airplane is doing aerodynamically. Leave it on and soon as the tail is iced up enough you’ll come down like a rock.It will be difficult to reveal what happened (icing, loss of spatial awareness, technical problem etc…), unfortunately. We could all learn so many lessons.
In the high end PPL school thread I mentioned the “mindset” concerning risk and safety awareness.
The comment from the aeroclub person to me is, irrespective if he just wants to protect his deceased flying friend or not, just blatantly wrong and risky. That mindset is not a good environment. There is a huge difference in flying a 172 around over land and ferrying a Cirrus over the ocean in Winter.
It would be very interesting to know if the pilot had also undertaken this trip if he were to ferry a 172 home.
Also it would be interestig to know if there was some (maybe self made) time pressure involved.
“Flights of 3 hours in a SEP of this category can take 3 days, two of which you sit around and wait for better weather.”
Really sad and useless loss of life.
Flyer59 wrote:
a SR20-G3 has such exquisite avionics that will fly you through 75 percent of all weather.
Thats probably what someone told him. Didnt work out!
In my opinion, fancy modern avionics on big screens give a false impression of aircraft capability. Yes, the Cirrus has top notch “software”, but the “hardware” is not matching the software… It still has only one piston powerplant prone to low performance, no pressurization and limited deicing depending on fluid remaining.
Seeing the Airbus inside but forgetting that there is no Airbus outside can easily kill you.
Sorry, but that’s really complete nonsense.
There is no airplane of this class that can fly through severe icing, let alone on autopilot, and you only have to read the manual once to understand that. ATR72 and Bombardier Airliners have crashed when they flew in severe icing with the autopilot on. And bigger airplanes. Read the accident report of the TBM700C2 that came down like a brick in sever icing, and that’s an airplane with capable deicing.
There were enough weather reports out that made it clear: no day for flying. By accidence my friend Alexander Wolf, one of the most experienced SR2x instructors in the world (who teaches all over the world) and who flies his SR20 through the USA all the time, was at Amsterdam airport that day. Message on COPA: This was no day for a Cirrus SR20 to fly in this region.
The SR20 has absolutely NO anti-icing or deicing, and the pilot knew that, of course. It is a VFR airplane, that can be flown in light IFR conditions. Other than that he was a VFR pilot who had no business flying over the North Sea in those conditions.
Really not sure why the PPL doesn’t include some formal CRM, it wouldn’t be too onerous for schools/clubs to implement, and could be progressed for other ratings.
The Gasco Safety evenings seem quite well put together, and the ones I have attended had suitably senior air crew presenting. Free, and the closest thing for recurring CRM for private GA.
Flyer59 wrote:
Sorry, but that’s really complete nonsense.
What did I write that you feel is complete nonsense?
Sorry as well but if your reply came in response to my posting the problem is not that it is nonsense but rather that you did not understand it.
