Based on this conversation, we may want to collect a few facts and some tales about this in this thread.
Germany has a “tradition” about IFR pilots departing in marginal VFR weather and then climbing up to the MRVA where IFR officially starts according to the German ATC provider. It is said that they not always maintain VMC despite being asked to do so over the radio and the “tradition” is that it is known and kind of accepted on both sides of the radio link.
In other countries IFR flights can commence directly after takeoff and there is no need for that.
With SERA IFR in airspace G is permitted but some countries don’t want to allow it citing concerns of safety. It appears it is the same countries that have the aforementioned “tradition”.
Let’s collect in this thread information about this is being dealt with in different parts of the EU.
… and the “tradition” is that it is known and kind of accepted on both sides of the radio link.
I think that is wrong. It is done, of course, and all the time too, but it is not “accepted on both sides”. I would also not call it a “tradition”, Although it’s slowly becoming one :-)
Sorry, but of course it is true that everybody knows what is happening. That “remain VFR in VMC” is merely a shifting-of-esponsibility act, not an exchange of useful information.
Controllers in Germany are not so stupid to think that pilots will indeed always find (and aim for) the magic hole in the clouds. But hey, they are not interested, because, as I said, they already shifted the responsibility away from them.
We shouldn’t make a bigger deal out of it than it really is. Flying IFR in Golf is provided for by ICAO and legal and standard practice in most parts of the world. That’s why people do it in Germany too.
Sorry for “nitpicking”, bosco – of course I know that everybody “knows what’s happening”. But that’s not the same as beeing “accepted”. Or is it?
But whatever it is, you are right anyway. I think that it’s a matter of where, when and how … I have no problem myself flying through a cloud on the way to the clearance. But I will not take off into solid IMC and pretend I’m VMC. I guess it’s a matter of taste and personal style then.
Even when I started flying several decades ago, the German practice of not issuing IFR clearances below MRVA, which often is at 3,000ft AGL or higher, was handled by completely ignoring it and pretending to be VMC. We were taught the rules with a big wink by the instructors. That certainly makes it a tradition.
That is because the rule is simply unnecessary – it is the equivalent of a traffic light on a footpath at 4am, a nuisance that is ignored safely. The MRVA is in practice below the minimum IFR altitude, so risk of collision in cloud is almost zero, and terrain is also not a factor in that altitude band.
As evidence – not a single mid-air in decades. All “Illegal IMC” accidents in Germany happened during the approach phase with weather well below even IFR approach minima (recently Egelsbach, Trier), with the occasional higher-level CFIT in the pre-GPS days (e.g., Burda).
To answer the question – I only include personal experience in the past few years here.
Cobalt wrote:
Pop-Up clearances without IFR flight plan: Expect long discussions and flight plan filing in air if lucky
On the other hand, I once planned to join IFR south side of the alps in austria, but then weather forced me to change plans and join IFR north side of the alps eastbound with DFS. The controller had no problem with that whatsoever, even though they weren’t even addressed in the original plan, and workload must have been roughly the same as with a pop up clearance.
Morale of the story seems to be to always file some sort of flight plan, even if it has to be completely revised.
to the clearance. But I will not take off into solid IMC and pretend I’m VMC. I guess it’s a matter of taste and personal style then.
Neither will I. But we are no good examples for typical IFR-GA ops. I am only a sunday pilot, i.e. I tend to fly only when the weather is nice, and I an flexible.
But please look at all those multi-million, corporate Kingairs, TBMs and Cheyennes based at airfields like Freiburg, Koblenz or Bielefeld (proper GA airfields, but no IFR procedures)…. Do you think the companies running them keep them as “fair weather toys”?
boscomantico wrote:
But please look at all those multi-million, corporate Kingairs, TBMs and Cheyennes based at airfields like Freiburg, Koblenz or Bielefeld (proper GA airfields, but no IFR procedures)…. Do you think the companies running them keep them as “fair weather toys”?
Has anyone tried to call German ATC on the phone before takeoff? Maybe that is what they do.
I assume they will get the same phrases “maintain VMC, IFR starts at …” but their flight path is known in advance and the workload is much lower. In the US that is common practice and I’ve done it there myself.
In order to not guess, I just called DFS AIS and they did ask the “Wachleiter”. Answer: No, for an IFR pickup one has to be in the air. There is no way to get a clearance with void time while still on the ground. The only piece of information available before takeoff is the squawk and the frequency of the first sector.
There is no way to get a clearance with void time while still on the ground. The only piece of information available before takeoff is the squawk and the frequency of the first sector.
Same here but it’s obvious due to Croatian ATC being trained in Germany.
Cobalt wrote:
To answer the question – I only include personal experience in the past few years here.
A good summary.
But – when you talk about “ATC” in class G, you are actually referring to FIS – ATS. ATS is any of ATC, FIS, alerting and advisory service (class F). I would ask everyone to try to be precise about the terminology. This is particularly important when we are discussing a tricky subject such as this one which is prone to misunderstanding by people who don’t have a lot of experience of how it is handled outside their own country.
