Peter wrote:
I know somebody who bent the front of a TB20 landing in those conditions and not expecting it
Since it was the front, I suspect the real cause was excess speed at least initially rather than not enough… 
Is there downdraft when into wind, as well as windshear there?
“Is there downdraft when into wind, as well as windshear there?”
Downdraft is the bigger problem here.
greg_mp 09-Aug-21 12:52 27
Another point wrt what we learn in Mountain rating is a low pass to check the field and wind , something that can’t be done at Courchevel, because you have a hard runway and afis agent, that can’t see gust and draft. But I reckon qualified pilot should coop with.
About Kve , i have seen as many formulas as type of planes. I think that formula for b737 may not be the same as a cub.
Last Edited by greg_mp at 09 Aug 12:59
Well, not really. Every time I’ve landed there I’ve always overflown twice to assess. Cirrus, Husky and Jodel. Always the same.
The only time I felt the need for Kve was flying low wing loads of 5lbs/ft^2 (single seat microlights, gliders & SSDR)
Honestly if one can’t nail their speed on approach on aeroplanes, they should not go anywhere near mountains or trees !
In summer time, there is often nobody available in the tower at Couchevel and thus also no landing charges. There is nothing to do there in the summer, so the only reason to go there is to keep your site license valid if you have only the site license and no mountain rating.
I have been many times to Courchevel. I find it easier to fly there with the Cirrus or a slower aircraft than, e.g. the Piper PA34-200T or a DA42 Twin. The airspeed on final is kept on the positive side of the power curve in order to cope with the possibility of downdrafts on short final with that hill that you are aiming at just below the threshold. If you would drag it in, you would maybe not have enough energy left to correct for such a downdraft.
There is this picture album in the tower with in it all the crashes at Courchevel since it opened. If you ever go there go up into the tower and ask for it. Since they started requiring the site license, the number of accidents have dropped significantly.
That’s a strange one. Can’t agree with@AeroPlus on landing a turbo Seneca or a DA42 being more difficult to land at Courcheval than a Cirrus.
The KVe calculations, whichever formula you use, still apply IMO.
You unfortunately forgot the most important words in your statement. To make it correct you need to ad a “with perfect landing technique” at the place I marked with (*) in the quote.
Fair point, with which I agree, but I did not forget.
Rather, I think that the popular prejudice in respect of most of the ”restricted use” alpine runways, including Courchevel, is that it behoves a landing pilot momentarily to pay attention, to take his hands out of his pockets and to attempt to fly with a degree of precision.
Even so, we screw up sometimes and thereby get a chance to fly a different type of airplane while we reconstitute and upgrade the broken one…
I have flown with three different instructors at Courchevel and was based there for my Mountain Rating. One point that always sticks in my mind is don’t event bother going there with a northerly of 20 knots or greater. Robert Christin would frequently use the mantra “aiming point, aiming point” when I was trying to establish a stabilised final approach. Courchevel is the biggest of the altiports that we flew into during the rating. Some of the others looked almost impossible to land at on first view. Although hard work the rating is one that has given me lots of memories including Alex Combes wiping cow dung off of the windscreen after we had landed at Isola.
Whatever the runway slope, landing length required is a function of the square of ground speed (GS) at touchdown. Aircraft mass is irrelevant except to the extent that it affects GS for a given airplane.
This is not correct. The braking distance is function of speed and mass.
Braking distance = 1/2 * mass x speed squared / braking force
So if your mass is doubled (and the braking force and speed remains the same) then your braking distance will double.
