alioth wrote:
They also probably didn’t enter a TCU
Indeed, but they flew fine over the sea with plenty of clouds around…
alioth wrote:
One factor is that even instrument rated and current pilots have come to grief by going VFR into IMC. If you’re on an IFR flight plan, you’re already in the IFR “mindset”, and your instrument scan is already going.
I doubt that is strictly true but yes there is some evidence that a large proportion of IR pilots tend to fall out of the sky without an active IFR FPL and ATC Rada, the IFR clearance seems to allow them to keep their aircraft controlled in clouds:
- I think that proportion is very high for US IR pilots, about 99% would fall out of the sky on VFR into IMC encounter without FPL/ATC, as they are used to operate in Echo airspace (it required positive ATC clearance and you can’t swap VFR/IFR in Echo as 14 CFR § 91.173 prohibits it but you can in Golf)
- I think that proportion in very low for UK IR pilots, about 99% would not have an issue of VFR into IMC encounters without FPL/ATC, isn’t that what UK IMCR rating and OCAS is about?
Not comparing the two sets of pilots as they operate in completely different airspaces Echo vs Golf, but I had limited evidence of the ‘IFR state of mind, or lack of it’ from RHS PAX experience, if it was me I would have done it differently: fly and nivigate the aircraft first and later on call ATC, maybe after 1h or 2h of continuous IMC encounter (or heck 1 day after my landing) but surely I would not lose my aircraft while talking on radio…
There is a video going around, fairly low quality, taken on G-EGVA not long before their demise. You could work out where they were from the view out of the window (the UK cliffs). It shows the wall of cloud in the distance ahead. Nothing else useful IMHO.
The “milkbowl” “fishbowl” effect certainly is believed to have led to many fatalities.
I don’t know about the Channel, although this, by some is thought to behind the death of Amy Johnson, but certainly in the 1990s it was thought to be behind many accidents going from the mainland to Corsica. So much so that regulations and advice was changed. IIRC French club pilots had to undergo further training before being allowed to do the crossing in a club plane. This was before JAR and EASA.
I still has my TT at the time.
FCL PPL has 2h-5h of Basic IF skills (or what we call VSV in France, I had to do that when I applied for night rating as the legacy PPL did not have it)
Just curious to know if someone who ticked EX19 during his training has ever crashed in VMC hazy days, in VFR aircraft or in IFR aircraft? there load of reasons why one should minimize flying over water, the ‘fishbowl’ often cited is seriously not one of them? the lack of GPS/VOR, maybe?
The discussion on ‘fishbowl’ is moot, these were two experienced pilots who flew an IFR Arrow in IMC inside clouds dead into TCU/CB cell between 1500ft Danger Area and 7500ft LMTA
Graham wrote:
Can you imagine being the judge in such a case, and how absurd it would be for the sole unbiased and authoritative narrative of events, a painstaking technical evaluation of all the relevant factors, to be considered inadmissible as a matter of policy?
unbiased? authoritative? I recall an instance where the report from the AAIB was factually incorrect and was used to pursue a hapless examiner through the courts. Google G-Styx for more details of the whole sorry saga. To this extent, I refuse to consider them the “sole unbiased and authoritative narrative of events”, because, as that case shows, they got it seriously wrong.
gallois wrote:
According to most POHs I have read Va is described as manoeuvring speed, above which full and sudden movements on the controls can cause distortion or damage to the aircraft.
I think both you and Peter are pretty much saying the same thing. At least when I did training for my current aircraft, the manual clearly states that, at Va or below, any significant pull on the stick back would cause the aircraft to stall before the frame was compromised. However the manual also notes that, even at Va, negative load on the wings can stress them to the point of failure because the tolerance for negative g is much lower, hence they warned about full stick forward.
Haha yes Peter, thought my website would be a good avatar as it also has my name in it. The website has been a hobby of mine for some years on and off. I thought it might be interesting to some. I wrote a METAR/TAF retriever tool that fetches them from the US NOAA server (for IT savvy people who like using the terminal — it’s quicker than an app, and I use it myself before flights).
As for the G-EGVA videos on youtube, yes I saw two - I liked the one from Wellesbourne to Fairoaks as Fairoaks is my base – great FISOs here.
There are lots of interesting side discussions on this thread, I must catch up on them.
The video in question was made on the accident flight.
Was it a live video? or they have retrieved something after the crash?
Do you have a link?
No link and I won’t post it. It seems to be going around some IM groups.
It shows very clear conditions, good vis, and the clouds in the distance.
