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Cross wind and flaps

Apparently quite a few instructors, reading the various fora.

There is a bit of a conflict if say the POH says “always use full flap for landing”. This is the scenario described by what_next above.

It’s a bit like max demo crosswind is say 25kt. Would you be happy with an instructor saying “don’t bother with that; 50kt is just fine”.

All this stuff is fine if the recipient of the advice knows what he/she is doing.

Any plane can land with half or whatever flap; you just have to land faster, and need more runway. Landing faster does mean the crosswind has a smaller effect.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Peter wrote:

There is a bit of a conflict if say the POH says “always use full flap for landing”

Yes, but how many POHs do? Apparently the Cirrus one does (I’ve never flown one), but I venture to say it’s pretty rare. Also max x-wind is a recommendation, not a limitation (I am not saying go out and try a 50kt x-wind, though!!)

tell me what is your practise with the flap setting in crosswind landing approaching demonstrated limits and why?

I always land with full flap, because it works (and the POH says so)

Yes, but how many POHs do

Evidently some do, some don’t. I would just say: follow the POH, as a starting position.

I am sure there are plenty of bad POHs, especially with very old planes (1960s and earlier) because back then aviation was much more a “game for real men” etc etc etc and reading a user manual was never fashionable… and all aspects of life were just less prescriptive, but in general the stuff that goes into the POH comes from factory test pilots who know how far the thing can go before something gets bent.

I know this is off topic but it is another example: The internet has gigabytes of forum threads on how to hot start a Lyco IO540 engine. Actually if you follow the POH, it starts! Amazing! It’s what I have been doing the last 14 years since I bought the TB20. Those who know me will readily agree I am not the “live and let live” type but hey if something works, why change it? Aviation has plenty enough variables already, like weather…..

I wonder what happened to @Pilot_DAR? He always had lots of input here… he does a lot of certification work.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

boscomantico wrote:

Because you are afraid of forgetting to retract the flaps or what?

No

boscomantico wrote:

“Normally”, one would obviously reduce flaps right after the application of full power, from fully down to the second stage… then gear, then first stage and then fully up…

If you do a very low go-around where you are already in the flare or shortly before flaring (“balked landing”) you may be too slow to retract the first stage of flaps without stalling. At this point your engine needs to accelerate you beyond a speed where you can safely retract those flaps whilst keeping you in the air and getting you some positive rate of climb. This can be a demanding task for some underpowered aircraft and especially for twins (and twin jets!) with one engine out. The less flaps you have set, the easier and safer your go-around will be.

EDDS - Stuttgart

what_next wrote:

This can be a demanding task for some underpowered aircraft and especially for twins (and twin jets!) with one engine out. The less flaps you have set, the easier and safer your go-around will be.

Exactly. Try it with a 172 that has the 40deg flap setting option. Ideally on a long rwy with little or now wind. You might be surprised….

@what_next
The SR22 is a great crosswind landing airplane. Yes 26 kts is a lot, but it was still easy. There must be one advantage of not flying for a company.
Full flap go-arounds, even from low speed, are a non-event in the SR22 – if you have some coordination talent.

Full flap go arounds are a “non event” in a 250-300HP plane but the OP is flying a C172.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Peter wrote:

Full flap go arounds are a “non event” in a 250-300HP plane but the OP is flying a C172.

And they can be impossible to perform in a twin (prop or jet) on one engine under certain conditions. This is why the POH of such aircraft, even ones that usually need to be landed with full flaps, contains a phrase like “Flap full – when landing is assured”. It is up to the pilot to interpret “when landing is assured” under the conditions he lands in. For a gusty crosswind, “landing is assured” for me means that the third of three wheels is on the ground… no need to lower any more flap after that. This is why our company SOPs advocate landing with flaps in the “approach” stage (instead of “land”) when we have only one engine.

EDDS - Stuttgart

what_next wrote:

This is why our company SOPs advocate landing with flaps in the “approach” stage (instead of “land”) when we have only one engine.

Interestingly this is not universally agreed.
Most pilots rarely land with approach flap only, so is an emergency situation the time to try something new?

On the small Citations the big training providers tend to stick with the “full flap once landing is assured” in a OEI situation, but often train you to be fully configured at the FAF for approaches with both engines working. Of course this doesn’t always work in real life; “speed 180 to 4DME” being a popular reason why.

Darley Moor, Gamston (UK)

I happened to land SR20 in 32 kts 40 deg left of runway center line – just to find out the Cirrus doesn´t care about the cross wind at all – even with half flaps “because it´s cross wind”. But there was something in the back of my head to research POH afterwards….so read POH as a starting point and get experience yourself. Like with almost anything at flying….

LKKU, LKTB
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