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D-ESPJ TB20 crash near Annecy, France, 25/11/2016

Peter wrote:

Stefan had an Aspen IFD1000, and the old TB20GT cockpit.

The Aspen can have synthetic vision but this one probably did not. It is vicciously expensive for a piece of software (3000 $ I believe).

Any GNS430W with Terrain would have done the same job too. The tragedy is, they flew up a valley and had they just continued it, would probably not have hit anything… I wonder what prompted that right turn into the mountainside.

Even the portables do it, I wonder if the apps mentioned in the ipad don’t. My Garmin does a pretty good representation of terrain.

LSZH(work) LSZF (GA base), Switzerland

172driver wrote:

All you need is an iPad running ForeFlight and you’re good.

Or SkyDemon or…..

ESKC (Uppsala/Sundbro), Sweden

Probably not, since this guy was well known to be using SD. And prob99 he was in VMC…

I don’t think anything short of full synthetic vision (e.g. a forward view, along the current trajectory, showing the terrain) will do the job.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Peter wrote:

I don’t think anything short of full synthetic vision (e.g. a forward view, along the current trajectory, showing the terrain) will do the job.

I think that is what one needs: something calculates & plot whole safe route in Synthetic-Vision with forward view & full horizon with projected flight path trajectory?

Bellow 1000ft agl with terrain around flight rules and weather conditions are irrelevant, if one has to pull/push nose more than few degrees to avoid terrain then he has less understanding of how piston aircraft flies (once got wrong impression that my engine had problems before turning back not that fresh POH performance is way less than extra300 or military jets and 70% terrain gradient, checked my engine, no issues found and I did some maths, the picture is way more clear now, I simply was just lucky that day)

Also for fast SEP touring at MTOW, tactical turn back or climb above terrain are really theoretical concepts, one is fixated on flying A to B as fast as possible, that works well while staying above MSA, and one can maybe leave that “slow light weight local flight” for latter? (or even better: mountain scenery flying in a cub or mountain wave flying in a glider)

Last Edited by Ibra at 16 Jun 11:09
Paris/Essex, France/UK, United Kingdom
Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Sad to see how accident reports seem to be taken at face value by judges as the tell all of what happened, although accident investigators may be speculating wildly. Maybe they aren’t even aware of their status as expert witness in later civil and criminal court cases, and in my opinion accident investigation reports should be expressly excluded as evidence in any court case. Their sole purpose is to improve aviation safety, and too often this goal is in direct opposition with court proceedings.

In other words, you would be very well advised to keep your lips sealed if ever talking to an accident investigator, and to destroy any evidence that may be used against you or your estate in a court case.

Rwy20 wrote:

Maybe they aren’t even aware of their status as expert witness in later civil and criminal court cases, and in my opinion accident investigation reports should be expressly excluded as evidence in any court case. Their sole purpose is to improve aviation safety, and too often this goal is in direct opposition with court proceedings.

Oh yea they are, or at least the ones you probably are thinking of are VERY aware. Whether the BEA types care is another story. They can and will always hide behind Annex 13 and the true purpose of accident investigations. Unfortunately judges and insurances do not care about Annex 13 at all.

Rwy20 wrote:

you would be very well advised to keep your lips sealed if ever talking to an accident investigator, and to destroy any evidence that may be used against you or your estate in a court case.

That on the other hand unfortunately is a very well known issue. I wonder how Germany handles this, as there the reports are totally devoid of any registrations and names e.t.c.

But particularly in Switzerland and some other countries where those reports and the underlaying data go straight to the penal courts as well as civil courts, trying to contribute to flight safety by being up front about any incident or accident without a lawyer present is a very bad idea.

LSZH(work) LSZF (GA base), Switzerland
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