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Do we all need ADS-B Out & Mode S by 7th Dec 2020 in Europe?

Cttime wrote:

What an extremely bad idea to require mode s for all IFR traffic (as in only IFR traffic). This is just going to ensure its more difficult for IR pilots to remain current by further reducing the fleet available to them. How many clubs where the majority of members fly primarily within 10nm of the field are going to pay to keep their planes IFR legal? If they were going to require it they should have required it for flight in controlled airspace.

Transponders are relatively low-cost avionics. The Trig TT31 (about SEK 25000 incl. VAT in Sweden) is plug compatible with the common BendixKing KT76A and KT76C transponders so if you have one of those you’ll have zero installation work. The new mode S requirement has been known for several years and it has been easy for clubs to plan economically for this.

ESKC (Uppsala/Sundbro), Sweden

Airborne_Again wrote:

Transponders are relatively low-cost avionics.

That is true, but only if you leave out ADS-B in capability, which is the only really new functionality to the mode-S pilot. ADS-B in doubles the price of the transponder. That is why most owners get Trig or other cheap mode S transponders that may or may not have ADS-B out capability, but what we should see for all this to make more sense is improved traffic awareness, which ADS-B out only provide for other airplanes. Besides, many low-cost mode S transponders like the Trig TT31 are capable of ADS-B out but the owners do not even use that, since it makes no difference to them or they simply do not know.

Last Edited by huv at 23 Jun 07:38
huv
EKRK, Denmark

Airborne_Again wrote:

As of today, each country/ANSP decides if they require mode S for IFR or not.

Thank you, and I am sure that is correct, and others have confirmed it. However, no-one has been able to point to the exact words in the regulations that explains the change. And the person that disputes it is a member of an EASA committee :-) although not a Eurocontrol/SES specialist. I have only searched superficially, and not found anything, but if you can point to a Swedish AIC or similar stating that Sweden does not require mode S for IFR, then it could contribute to settle the discussion here. If it is not too much trouble.

huv
EKRK, Denmark

huv wrote:

ADS-B in doubles the price of the transponder.

Since ADS-B in doesn’t have to be certified you can get it on your iPad for peanuts.

Who flies without ForeFlight or SkyDemon or EasyVFR nowadays?

On my SkyEcho 2 (just one device, you can build a Stratux using a Raspberry Pi if you want to go really cheap) I get ADS-B signals from the middle of Germany in the south of Sweden.

ESME, ESMS

Dimme wrote:

you can get it on your iPad for peanuts.

Well I do have a SkyEcho2 that shows targets on the iPad, but it has to be set up for every flight and that has all the usual limitations of an iPad. I just do not use it every time I fly because of that.

huv
EKRK, Denmark

What kind of setting up and limitations are you referring to?

ESME, ESMS

Setting up. Unpacking SkyEcho, checking it for battery, charging if neccessary, mounting the suction cup, pairing it to iPad SkyDemon. Reverse after flight.
Limitations. iPad depends on battery and dies in heat/sunlight. And 4G does not work when it is connected to SkyEcho via WiFi.
Having a transponder with ADS-B in would solve all that, and traffic (and UAT weather) would be available on every flight.
And – range of UAT weather with SkyEcho is less than 20 NM, whereas it is more than 50 NM via transponder.

huv
EKRK, Denmark

Ok I see your concerns.

However, I have to do all of that every time before my flight anyways. You need to have some kind of map, either on paper or digitally, so you have to unpack that anyways. Setting up the suction cup takes literally 15 more seconds. Pairing happens automatically for me. I also get airspace warnings and traffic warnings and runway threshold warnings though Bluetooth straight into my headset. That also happens automatically for me and I don’t have to pair before each flight. I still don’t understand why some people on this forum (not you) keep insisting that you cannot get audible warnings with portable devices.

Regarding charging, I set all of my devices to charge as soon as a return home so they are ready for my next flight. Again, if you have any kind of digital EFB you will have to do that at home anyways.

Regarding shutdown midflight, it never happened to me, but I think there is another thread for this discussion.

I’m not using UAT and I don’t think a panel mounted ADS-B in device will provide that for you anywhere in Europe, unless you’re flying around the one transmitter near Billund, over SkyDemon headquarters or seasonally around Friedrichshafen.

Another thing you don’t get with a panel mounted device, unless of course you want to spend loads of money, is FLARM traffic.

One more benefit of portable devices is that you can get all of that in any airplane. Of course if you own your own aircraft then the story is different and you probably already have loads of money to invest in panel mounted solutions so that is no issue for you. (I’m using “you” here in third person)

ESME, ESMS

I replaced an out of spec transponder with a Garmin GTX335 (ADS-B Out only) and continued to use my Stratus 2 receiver. This receives both 1090 and UAT, is never removed from the aircraft and is supplied with ships power that is set up to cycle on/off with the master switch. In the US, it typically displays traffic via Wi-Fi within a few seconds of powering up on my hard mounted iPad Mini, i.e. while still in front of my hangar, whereas the transponder takes a couple of minutes longer to determine GPS location. Since both the Stratus box and iPad Mini have a GPS receiver, there is redundancy and failure of the Stratus box would not affect GPS navigation (or obviously ADS-B Out compliance). Navigation is itself backed up by my phone, also panel mounted in flight and running FF with separate Wi-Fi connection to display Stratus traffic. The setup provides three GPS receivers for navigation and two displays for traffic, all running in flight. One additional WAAS GPS receiver is in the GTX335 for ATC and regulatory compliance, not backed up as it isn’t flight critical.

I prefer this set-up as it is more amenable to quick and inexpensive upgrade – I want the minimum of equipment permanently installed with the clock ticking on its obsolescence. The only downside for my purposes is overheating the iPad Mini while parked in hot sunshine – I have no overheating problems in flight but unclip and remove it when parked outside. I have no plans to ever replace or upgrade the installed GTX335, hopefully it will outlive me. It’s for compliance with FAA requirements only and unless they change again, it should not require further attention.

I’m posting this from my primary navigation and traffic/weather display.

Last Edited by Silvaire at 23 Jun 15:17

huv wrote:

I have only searched superficially, and not found anything, but if you can point to a Swedish AIC or similar stating that Sweden does not require mode S for IFR, then it could contribute to settle the discussion here. If it is not too much trouble.

For Sweden, AIP GEN 1.5. I’ve without much difficulty found the same information in AIP-Norway and AIP-Finland. I have not been able to find any information at all about IFR transponder requirements in AIP-Denmark.

Generally, AIP GEN 1.5 (Aircraft instruments, equipment and flight documents) is where you would expect to find this information, but AIP ENR 1.1 (General Rules and Procedures), ENR 1.3 (Instrument Flight Rules), or ENR 1.6 (ATS surveillance services and procedures) are also possible places to look in.

Last Edited by Airborne_Again at 23 Jun 17:38
ESKC (Uppsala/Sundbro), Sweden
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