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Eclipse 500 - jet on the cheap?

The average Cirrus customer just drops it off at the official dealer (in the UK, anyway). You will get this at every level. I don’t know if it’s any different for jets.

Mechanical tinkering is probably mostly a piston driver thing.

I’ve never heard anyone with a jet doing an assisted annual. Apart from the owner most likely not having the time anyway, I reckon you’d have to be an experienced mechanic to know what you’re getting into. I sure wouldn’t want to fiddle around with the auto throttles or screwing around with the trim tabs on my hypothetical Gulfstream.

Anyway, like alexisvc, I’m also 95% about the flying and 5% about the maintenance.

Last Edited by Hodja at 07 Feb 09:23

Maybe, if I had a hangar in which I could do the maintenance I would do it aswell.

There are plenty of maintenance companies that let owners do all the work and provide hangarage and tools and help as required. There is no alternative to getting your hands dirty when trying to become knowledgable about your aircraft. And it’s a lot of fun because it’s such primitive technology with high tolerances that even a medium talented person can do it.

MOST pilots cannot do the maintenance on their planes.

They can subscribe to services such as Savvy helping them in their dealings with the maintenance companies. Given that I am the one flying in my aircraft and not the mechanic, I have to be confident and until today I have not met a single maintenance company that would give me this confidence. All of them have done things that could have meant serious harm or financial damage if I hadn’t discovered it.

I think Peter is right about the TBM. That is an aircraft a private owner would not want to have on EASA reg but operate under N-reg Part 91. I have witnessed the EASA maintenance of one and it is eye watering what they do. There is a regular landing gear inspection that costs north of 10 000 € and the book is full with stuff like that.

i don’t really care. I will never fly a jet, and i would not even consider a turboprop if i sold my company very well … i’d rather send my kids to some great university or buy a house in the mediterranean. The SR22 is really the max i can (somehow) justify.

An excellent point of view. Owning a jet makes sense for almost no one. The costs involved (for the price of the insurance for a private owner-pilot alone you can buy a good Cessna 182 every year!) are so high, that chartering a jet when required will always be a lot less expensive. With the saved money, one can buy and maintain a very nice single just for fun. Flying bizjets in comparison is not really fun, it’s more about pressing buttons in the correct sequence and trying to avoid expensive mistakes.

And when considering buying an Eclipse I would not bother about RVSM capability or reaching FL410. With the kind of engines and range this thing has, it makes almost no sense to climb above FL300. „My“ Citation can theoretically reach FL450, but from my 1800 hours on the aircraft I spent less then 10 above FL400. For inter-European flights we seldom exceed FL300.

EDDS - Stuttgart

Hi Achim,

well, (first) I do not consider myself a “medium talented person” when it’s about mechanics. I am not a great mechanic either, but I used to restore cars for fun, did engine overhauls, welding all by mself. I did 100 h inspections on my Warrior, but only twice, 18 years ago.

Still, I know that a LOT of experience is needed to do aircraft maintenance well. And there’s people out there who have the experience and who can do it better than I will. You just have to find the right people, which is the hardest part, I admit.

My plane is maintained by a CAMO, and only a Part 145 maintenance facility will get a work order form my CAMO (RGV in England). If I have time I can still be in the shop, check what they do, investigate the net for solutions (which most aircraft mechanics never do, for several reasons). For me (!) it’s fine that others do the maintenance and I gladly pay for my freedom … It’s really a mystery to me where you guys find the time! I admire you for your enthusiasm, but i have so many other things to do and so many other interests ….

I am also not so sure if it’s that interesting. Okay do it once or twice to learn something – i agree! But to become an aircraft mechanic and lose time I can spend with much more attractive things? Never! There’s a life beyond airplanes!

There are plenty of maintenance companies that let owners do all the work and provide hangarage and tools and help as required.

Not anywhere I have ever been, for sure.

You must live on Mars, or in some corner of Germany which time forgot

I just posted that, because although there are specialists (fanatics? :-)) like you and Achim you have to keep in mind that MOST pilots cannot do the maintenance on their planes. So, when we talk about COST of flying in a forum like this one we can’t talk about what it costs YOU to maintain a TB20, becasue that is of very little value for the “average” (or “normal”) aircraft owner.

That’s a fair point, but the owner can still use a company and tell them what to do. This game is all about relationships. If you don’t build the required relationships, you will pay twice of what you should pay, and probably for the same work actually done.

I spend 3-4 days in the hangar on the Annual, with the A&P/IA. But equally I could choose to just drop the plane off there, go home, and come back a week later, inspect everything, let him put the covers back on, and fly out of there. It would cost me more but still much less than using a company and I know he would do exactly the right things (American trained mechanic, A&P/IA, CFII and ATP). The key to this is the hangar, without which you can’t do anything.

Back to jets, the Eclipse doesn’t have auto throttle and AFAICT is a relatively simple plane. It will be a TBM-like pressurised hull with different propulsion.

What Next must be right in that for the cost of having one you could fly on Netjets.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

That “relationship building” is really the hardest part, especially for a technically interested person like me (or even more so you?) because really wherever I was with my planes in the last 20 years I had experiences that were horrible.

And before that when my father has two planes and I was still only a copilot – the same. My father (who was a car mechanic and technician first and later a sales manager for Mercedes) really suffered with aircraft maintenance facilities and how stupid they sometimes behaved. He would tell me these stories all the time.

Well, maybe if it doesn’t turn out the way i want with the Cirrus I will build a hangar in the Czech Republic, nect to my company. That’s one of the few places I know where it would actually be possible. And the Czech are GREAT mechanics. I can see that every week in our company. They repair stuff all the time that their German collegues only throw away. They learned that the HARD WAY …

Ok, maybe all this is a new topic ….

Last Edited by Flyer59 at 07 Feb 10:23

You must live on Mars, or in some corner of Germany which time forgot

It is very common in Germany to do owner assisted annuals. Equally normal in the US. That ranges from “clueless owner standing next and pestering mechanic” to “owner does everything and shop only signs the paper”. It all depends on the shop and your relationship. In all shops I’ve been to, there were always owners swinging wrenches.

From a regulatory point of view, this is no problem because the person doing the actual work does not need to possess any formal qualification at all in EASA land and in fact most aircraft mechanics are trained car mechanics without any formal aviation training. Only the inspector needs to have the gold plated certificates which are very hard to get. He is ultimately responsible for the work and therefore has to decide who is allowed to do what.

The German club scene is allowed to perform maintenance itself (50/100h etc.) and requires its members to receive some formal training on that (I think 3 days). Part 145 shops do this training and this means that there are a lot of people around that know how to maintain an aircraft.

And when considering buying an Eclipse I would not bother about RVSM capability or reaching FL410. With the kind of engines and range this thing has, it makes almost no sense to climb above FL300.

What what I’ve read, the Eclipse is a jet that wants to be flown above FL300 due to fuel economics. It is not very economical below and apparently feels best at FL400. Still, nonsense for most owners, especially in Europe where most trips are short and the flight levels high up usually not available to you.

Talking about what makes sense and what not — owning a private plane certainly doesn’t, no matter if it’s an Eclipse, TBM850 or Cirrus. It’s just a hobby even if some people might claim otherwise. Given that it’s a hobby, one can organize ownership as one sees fit. Some people only want to fly, others like to maintain it. If you really want to understand an aircraft, you have to maintain it but that’s not everybody’s objective.

Last Edited by achimha at 07 Feb 10:29

It’s just a hobby even if some people might claim otherwise. Given that it’s a hobby, one can organize ownership as one sees fit. Some people only want to fly, others like to maintain it. If you really want to understand an aircraft, you have to maintain it but that’s not everybody’s objective.

Spot on.

Some people only want to fly, others like to maintain it. If you really want to understand an aircraft, you have to maintain it but that’s not everybody’s objective.

Agree, almost completely with one exception: You can of course understand things without doing them YOURSELF. What you cannot understand in this case is only the use of tools and work procedures etc. But definitely you can understand both the technology and all maintenance aspects without beeing a mechanic.

What what I’ve read, the Eclipse is a jet that wants to be flown above FL300 due to fuel economics.

According to the Eclipse website, it takes 29 minutes to reach FL410. These are sales figures, in the real world and with the unavoidable ATC climb restrictions it will be rather like 45. All the time with the engines going at full blast. In „my“ Citation, the difference in fuel flow between climb thrust and cruise thrust above FL300 is 1300lb/hr/engine versus 650. I assume that it is not really different in an Eclipse (I also has P&W engines just like ours). So once established at 410, the Eclipse will only have a few minutes there before having to descend again… Useless, really.

EDDS - Stuttgart
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