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Expect vectors without getting any vector

This is the route I use all the time: Direct

KUZA, United States

Don’t worry the routes will vanish and be replaced with activated exit entry points based on dynamic airspace (strategic, tactical)..impacting all these FRA DCT’s so as long we have military airspace people will have (IT) job’s… I think only the name needs to change e.g. freespaceplanner or something like that…

EBST

Free Route Airspace everywhere would drive autorouter out of business. What a horrible idea: an airspace where you can plan a flight by connecting intersections on the desired route without RAD document or anything. Terrible idea! Good that we employ paid lobbyists to make sure we keep the current IFPS/RAD system! FRA would kill a lot of jobs!

Take a look at Swedisch Danish and Hungarian AIP’s…

Very good that Hungary has introduced free routing! SE/DK free routing is unfortunately available only above FL 285, OTOH Swedish ATC is not fussy with how you file DCT so it doesn’t make much of a difference in practise.

Last Edited by Airborne_Again at 08 Jan 11:17
ESKC (Uppsala/Sundbro), Sweden

…I have never gotten anything else than a clearance containing departure instructions for joining the first (filed) waypoint of the en-route segment, contrary to the US where I always got a departure clearance all the way to destination (except STAR which was given by APP). Furthermore I have never heard “then as filed” or “flight planned route” in my clearances in France (or Belgium). I wonder whether they consider that to be implicit?

In my previous flying life, I never got a “flight plan route” clearance in Sweden — the clearance was always “Cleared to destination via departure instructions, first point in route”. Today, it seems I always get “Cleared to destination via departure instructions, flight plan route”

Last Edited by Airborne_Again at 08 Jan 11:16
ESKC (Uppsala/Sundbro), Sweden

No, there is nothing implicit about a clearance.

So in other words I have never been cleared to my destination… or anywhere beyond my first en-route waypoint. That’s interesting

“Cleared flight planned route” or “thereafter flight planned route” is very common in many countries I’ve flown in.

That, or a list of waypoints and airways, was what I expected on my first IFR flight in Europe (France). Just never happened.

LFPT, LFPN

Well, I had an IFR ENR map from Jepp from 1979 and if you compare it with today’s situation. It’s like a 4 year old kid started drawing a spider web, with lines all over the paper. So what is happening now due to the complexity of the European Route Network, technology is moving to FRA Free Route Airspace. The kid is now erasing all the lines (Routes)…
Take a look at Swedisch Danish and Hungarian AIP’s…

Link

EBST

When an IFR flight is within a country, the ANSP often takes shortcuts in violation of Eurocontrol regulations. Sometimes they even give you ad-hoc clearances that are not reflected in the Eurocontrol system. If more than one ANSP is involved, a lot of procedures have to be followed that you can skip when all people handling your flight are in a single room.

As far as I remember, I would get my clearance to the destination when going from/to France and the same with Belgium. In like 80% of my European IFR travel, I get an initial clearance to my destination. Of course in flight it is then amended numerous times…

Furthermore I have never heard “then as filed” or “flight planned route” in my clearances in France (or Belgium). I wonder whether they consider that to be implicit?

No, there is nothing implicit about a clearance. You are cleared exactly as spoken on the radio and recorded on tape. “Cleared flight planned route” or “thereafter flight planned route” is very common in many countries I’ve flown in. An IFR flight plan involving several countries can be very long and it’s not practical to read it entirely, have you read it back, read it again because of mistakes etc.

A clearance is complete until the clearance limit.

Agreed.

In most European cases you get a clearance until destination and if they don’t read it out completely, they say “flight planned route” and that is what you filed and got ACK’ed.

This is interesting because it has never happened to me so far. 99% of my IR flying in Europe has been within France, some in Belgium. I have never gotten anything else than a clearance containing departure instructions for joining the first (filed) waypoint of the en-route segment, contrary to the US where I always got a departure clearance all the way to destination (except STAR which was given by APP). Furthermore I have never heard “then as filed” or “flight planned route” in my clearances in France (or Belgium). I wonder whether they consider that to be implicit?

So from what you are saying can I infer there may be a specific practice in France whereby the departure clearance does not state the route all the way to destination (nor “then as filed”) unless your cleared route differs from what you filed? Do others have the same experience in France?

LFPT, LFPN

@Aviathor

Never have I received a departure clearance containing any parts of the en-route portion.

I think you got the wrong idea here. A clearance is complete until the clearance limit. In most European cases you get a clearance until destination and if they don’t read it out completely, they say “flight planned route” and that is what you filed and got ACK’ed.

You might have found the one case where looking at the RAD document gave you insight but that certainly doesn’t help for 99% of European IFR flights beyond a local flight as the restrictions are too complex and interdependent. For this, we have computers.

A STAR is not necessarily linked to a specific runway.

In 99% of the cases it is.

get the STAR I was expecting anyway because that was what I got back from IFPS/EuroFPL. If that is already part of your route, and you are supposed to know it, why spend bandwidth asking ATC?

That is only valid with tools that cannot generate SIDs/STARs like RR/EuroFPL and where Eurocontrol automatically inserts procedures. autorouter generates and files SIDs and STARs so you have them in your briefing pack. Chances that you actually get those vary so the value is not that great.

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