Field 19 in the ATS flight plan not automatically distributed to ATS units

Yes. I would even say it is rather common knowledge that these items are not distributed to ATS, but only kept at the AIS level. But no criticism at all… we can‘t know and remember everything.

Are there any negative effects to this? Hard to say. Things like endurance are of little value for ATS, since a) when in radio contact, they can always ask about your current fuel remaining and b) if you got lost on radar or something, then ATS can do very little, and things will get handed over to SAR anyway…

If flightplans were invented today (I know, difficult to imagine…) then it would probably be transmitted in full, but remember that back in the days, data communication and transmission was very basic and limited, hence every superfluous dot or digit was avoided.

I asked an ELLX approach controller a few months ago, he wrote back “I don‘t have direct access to that data, but i can ask for it.” Which I understood as “my terminal doesn’t show it, in order to not clutter my display with information I don’t need nor have any use for, but the computer has it and if I just press a few buttons or do a few mouse clicks, I have it”. Not “I can phone the originator to get the information”(!) He might have meant “I can ask my AIS colleagues which are sitting close to me / I have direct phone connection to”.

martin-esmi wrote:

These is a chance I misunderstood the FPC representative, but I think it was pretty clear. Is this a known fact to the rest of you?

Yes.

For Autorouter which is a free (great) service, will they provide this info when required?

I assume so. The request is done by an AFTN message (RQS) so it can be completely automated.

lionel wrote:

Not “I can phone the originator to get the information”(!)

Nevertheless, that is what he has do — or send an AFTN RQS message.

I have been told that, in the UK, the extra flight plan info is retrieved from some central database of AFTN messages, operated by NATS, and not from the agency which filed the flight plan originally.

Remember, anybody with the UK AFPEX tool can file flight plans entirely himself, and obviously won’t be around to fulfil a request for Box 19 data sometime later. Especially since AFPEX has no means of forwarding Inbox content to email, etc (a daft omission which I pointed out to them 10 years ago but they can’t do it unless they can produce a cost saving justification).

With the electronic filing agencies normally used today, there is usually nobody physically around; it is just a piece of software running on a server, with a web front on it. There may be an “IT guy” nominally in charge in case it breaks. That is the case for EuroFPL and the Autorouter. Perhaps not for Homebriefing, Olivia, DFS (and similar ATC based outfits) or Rocketroute.

And Skydemon uses EuroFPL. EasyVFR uses Rocketroute.

VFR flight plans go via the AFTN. IFR flight plans, in Europe, go to Eurocontrol and (maybe an ATCO can comment) I would expect the delivery of Box 19 info to be implemented in the IFPS system. Z and Y flight plans go both to Eurocontrol and via the AFTN.

All flight plans get copied, entirely, into a separate database which is accessible (to appropriately authorised people) for national security, search & rescue, etc, whatever, purposes. AFAIK in the UK the Box 19 data requests come out of that database.

In most of the modern world the AFTN runs on fairly fast leased lines etc.

martin-esmi wrote:

though I do believe this was news to a large part of the audience

I have never heard of this before. (and I probably will forget it in a couple of days anyway )

martin-esmi wrote:

The second thing was perhaps even more interesting, field 19 that specifies your endurance, emergency equipment, persons onboard, your name and phone number etc is not automatically distributed to the ATS unit that receive the other parts of the flight plan. In case you go missing (or miss to cancel the flight plan), this info is retrieved and sent to the rescue organization (JRCC in Sweden). However, since field 19 stays with the flightplan originator, FPC/JRCC has to contact them, e.g. SkyDemon/Autorouter, to retrieve the information. Hence, she was a bit hesitant to some of all the new players that submits flightplans.

On a second thought, I think I have heard this before. That is why LT has told us to use IPPC. It’s the only way to be sure that information is passed on correctly (I have never heard the details of what exactly can go wrong though). Then it is sent directly to the NOTAM office and distributed from there, digitally. And it works all right. I found this out this summer when I had a “mishap” in closing the FP and activated a full SAR mission…

IFR, I don’t think it matters. As I understand it IPPC use Eurocontrol for all IFR FPs, thus nothing can stay behind, since there is no “middle man” in this case either.

LeSving wrote:

IFR, I don’t think it matters. As I understand it IPPC use Eurocontrol for all IFR FPs, thus nothing can stay behind, since there is no “middle man” in this case either.

IFR flight plans are sent by AFTN to Eurocontrol. Already at that point should item 19 be omitted, so I don’t think Eurocontrol has item 19 either.

IFR flight plans are sent by AFTN to Eurocontrol

It isn’t AFTN. I remember this from early discussions when the Autorouter was being developed. The AFTN gateway (usually purchased from KBLIHAEX) was needed only for V Z Y, and unlike the Eurocontrol connectivity you had to pay money for this.

It is some kind of secure access – a VPN or some such.