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Flying high in VFR in European countries

Peter wrote:

An IR is simply hard work

It is, and a lot of time involved, too. But it’d be maybe interesting to compare work involved for doing, say, 800nm trips, when IFR is not an option. Doing the IR involves it’s amount of work practically only once and thereafter, you only need to check weather (which is a simplification, I know, as weather itself may be challenging enough).

Anyhow, a bit more of information would be interesting about the coming aircraft and the planned missions to maybe give further advice.

Germany

My experience, now a few years old (meaning I now lazily fly IFR so I don’t fly VFR “high” anymore), is:

  • Belgium no problem if you get at their FIR boundary while already high.
  • France no problem outside of the approx 30% to 50% of the country controlled by Paris.
  • Germany 50% chance of getting climb into C airspace above FL100.
  • Netherlands rare to get a climb into B airspace, which is already far lower than FL100. Extensive class A airspace over much of the country.
  • Switzerland I only ever crossed VFR “above, but not much above, FL100” VFR, was no problem.

Predator wrote:

For example what if I plan to go from north Italy

I don’t have maps now to check, but doesn’t Italy have a lot of Class A?

Predator wrote:

I did this question because my next airplane will have turbo engine and oxygen but a friend of mine, that has much more flying experience than me, told me that I won’t be allowed to fly that high so easily (in the 105-195 range).

An IR is useful far beyond the ability to fly high. Just saying.

Last Edited by lionel at 13 Sep 09:53
ELLX

I don’t have maps now to check, but doesn’t Italy have a lot of Class A?

Not any longer, really. Just some in the Milan area and some in the Rome area. Skydemon shows it quickly.

Also, the topic is VFR between 10 and 20k, and where there is class A up there, there is also class A below.

Mainz (EDFZ) & Egelsbach (EDFE), Germany

lionel wrote:

Netherlands rare to get a climb into B airspace, which is already far lower than FL100. Extensive class A airspace over much of the country.

The non-Amsterdam controlled areas of the Netherlands are class E up to FL195 in the north, no clearance require, and class B up to FL195 in the east and south-east. I’ve never been denied into those class B parts, but you should ask the radar controllers that own the airspace and not the flight info guys that manage the lower part.

The middle, west and south-west of the country is where the instrument arrival procedures into Amsterdam are, that’s all class A airspace. It starts with the CTAs at FL055 near the Belgian border and over the sea and then goes all the way down to 1500ft in the TMAs closer to the airport.

Even IFR traffic is banned from the TMAs unless you’re landing there, and that’s enforced in Eurocontrol since a few years so you can’t even file it. You have to file FL100 or above to go over the top of the TMA talking to Amsterdam Radar instead of Schiphol Approach.

Netherlands

lionel wrote:

Switzerland I only ever crossed VFR “above, but not much above, FL100” VFR, was no problem.
Switzerland is very tricky though. As soon as the military is active, you can prepare yourself for an immediate descent below class C, which is FL100 in the north and FL130 in the Alps. They simply kick you out, in case you’re already inside CAS from a neighbor country. Additionally, class C crossings through the Geneva or Zurich TMA will only be approved on very rare occasions. Your only luck for class C are the weekends and evenings after 5 pm, when the lower class C limit is FL150 over the Alps (instead of FL130) and a crossing above FL100 in the north (or FL150 over the Alps) will most likely be approved by ATC.

Talking about the military… They can cancel your flight through CAS also in some other countries, as soon as they’ve activities on your routing going on. Take the TRA zones in Germany for example, which go from FL80 up to FL245 (see also this topic) in the northern and western parts of the country. As German ATC seems to have no possibilities to clear you through active TRA zones, you’re forced to descent below FL80.

Thomas28 wrote:
The non-Amsterdam controlled areas of the Netherlands are class E up to FL195 in the north, no clearance require, and class B up to FL195 in the east and south-east.
Where does the Netherlands have class E up to FL195? I see class D, C or B above FL55 or FL65 everywhere in the Nieuw Milligen TMA, according to SkyDemon.
Last Edited by Frans at 13 Sep 16:47
Switzerland

When I had no instrument rating and flew in non-turbo aircraft, I most often would try to climb to around FL85-FL115 with no problems whatsoever. Indeed, entering Bravo airspace in The Netherlands would be a bit more work. Crossing Belgium no issue. Most of France and Germany no issue. Then I started flying the Cirrus SR22T and got my instrument rating and now fly in the cruise ideally around FL180. I would definitely try to fly as high as you and your aircraft feel comfortable. Altitude is your friend. I am still not able to climb above “the weather” all the time, but often the cloud base is lower and you will not find a lot of other traffic at that altitude. Go for it.

EDLE, Netherlands

Sometimes, Langen Radar is your friend:

https://www.onlinecontest.org/olc-3.0/gliding/flightinfo.html?dsId=4787482



Last Edited by HK-36R at 13 Sep 19:01
Germany

I have done quite a bit of VFR flying in my RV8 at or above FL95 which in many countries puts one in airspace C. Actually I cannot think of a single time I got a rejection from ATC. As long as one is on a flightplan going from A to B it becomes predictable for ATC, and much of the airspace is void in the range between FL100-300. 90% of GA traffic below and 90% CAT above, The great benefit is the increased fuel efficiency/speed, smoother air, better glide in emegency, more simple communication and navigation much like IFR. However be prepared to be vectored by ATC or flying direct to a waypoint they give you. And the most important thing which makes it tricky is not to get stuck VFR on top of a solid cloud layer, or otherwise ending up IMC.

Later I got an IR and a TB21 and then it just becomes the easy way to do long range flights so rarely do this VFR at high altitude anymore.

THY
EKRK, Denmark

In Poland FL95 to FL195 are C airspace and there is absolutely no problem to fly there VFR – just file and go; I’m sure IFR is as simple.

tmo
EPKP - Kraków, Poland

Peter wrote:

French VFR ban above FL115. But this will depend on where you fly.

There is no French VFR ban above FL115. I regularly fly at FL185 in France VFR.

LFMD - Cannes Mandelieu, EGLL - London Heathrow, France
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