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PA46 Malibu N264DB missing in the English Channel

Cobalt wrote:

Not in EASA-land (not unless the person paying the money is on board).

Can’t you offer a person to fly your plane for free?

Hopefully rule changes will prohibit things like Wingley but stop short of stopping well run warbirds flights.

not unless the person paying the money is on board

I don’t think it is a requirement for the aircraft owner to be on board.

If it was, then e.g. a positioning flight would require the plane to be empty. Normally it is, but not always. Somebody might be sitting in the back.

Also company owned planed can be transporting all kinds of staff and occassionally company customers, suppliers, etc. I imagine transporting customers could lead to “interesting” scenarios.

The definition of a private flight is along the lines of no money (or valuable consideration etc) changing hands in respect of the flight. That is the regulatory starting point. Most nonforming cases need an AOC, etc. Exceptions are where money is being paid but there are no passengers e.g. crop spraying and ferrying, which can be done on a CPL and no AOC.

Then there are concessions for

  • flight training, for profit (doesn’t need an AOC – in most of Europe) and this covers “trial lessons” (which are really pleasure flights in most cases, but there is no way around that)
  • cost sharing (tightly defined, but the rules have relaxed in recent years) and you cannot make a profit there unless you do some funny cost inflation

Can’t you offer a person to fly your plane for free?

I recall this discussion somewhere… Sure you can lend your plane to somebody and let them fly it around. That happens quite a lot. And if they pay you for it, it is called “rental” I think it gets “interesting” if you (the owner) are in it also, but I can’t get my head around the problem.

Hopefully rule changes will prohibit things like Wingley

I doubt anybody thinks this was a cost shared flight.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Noe wrote:

Can’t you offer a person to fly your plane for free?

The guys who design “cost sharing rules” and those who try to abuse them don’t think that way, so taking a pax for free or renting your aircraft for free are illegal AFIK

Last Edited by Ibra at 08 Feb 17:21
ESSEX, United Kingdom

Back to the aviation aspects here. If they didn’t find the pilot – how did he get out ? Having flown in a PA46 I simply cannot imagine how he would have been able to get out with Sala – who was prob99 much, much fitter! – staying in the back. Does any of the articles show pictures of the whole wreck? Cockpit windows?

What could help avoid something like this in the future is a type of „light aoc“ for commercial transport aside from the airlines. A smaller number of maximum pax, stringent wx minima and crew qualifications etc..
Convenient private flights do not have to be as expensive as they are now with essentially only multicrew twinjets. The current rules make it impossible or uneconomical, so whatever is actually going on happens completely out of any regulatory scope (illegal charter, pseudo cost sharing, friends doing favors etc..).
Make sensible rules and people will follow them.
Maintaining an office building full of administrative people to facilitate the same rules as for a major air carrier to operate a small more or less private airplane seems counter productive.

has a Beagle...
LOWG Graz Austria

I agree, and no known pics showing anything else.

so taking a pax for free or renting your aircraft for free are illegal AFIK

Could you amplify that please?

Re the business of the owner having to be in the plane: I have spoken to someone in the business and the answer is No, but the rules around this, and the relationship of who can be aboard, and the leasing arrangement for the plane, is really complex.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Snoopy wrote:

What could help avoid something like this in the future is a type of „light aoc“ for commercial transport aside from the airlines. A smaller number of maximum pax, stringent wx minima and crew qualifications etc..

Essentially like Part-NCC. Although that does it for a different reason it was partially pushed as a means to address illegal charter.

EGTK Oxford

Peter wrote:

Could you amplify that please?

I was only joking about all the caveats around this, of course you can legally take passengers and hand your aircraft keys to anyone but regulators/insurers/clubs would always like to know if there any “other arrangements” even when money does not change hands (e.g. scenario = a 70 years old pilot taking 16 years old top fashion model for free? ), the case you mentioned business owner/airplane is also interesting

Last Edited by Ibra at 08 Feb 18:41
ESSEX, United Kingdom

Ibra wrote:

The guys who design “cost sharing rules” and those who try to abuse them don’t think that way, so taking a pax for free or renting your aircraft for free are illegal AFIK

What do you think of the following:

1) For some reason, I wasn’t able to bring the plane back to my base. I ask to fly it back for me. I pay all your expenses to get there and don’t charge you for the flight.
2) You drove me to the airfield, but once there we had different plans. I went to Le Touquet on my own, but I forgot my passport in your car (not unlikely!). I tell you I’ll pay for your flight there and back (in the Druine Turbulent, let’s not push things) if you bring it to me
3) My sister urgently needs to come to london from Brittany. I ask you to pick her up and bring her and cover all flying costs.
4) Someone on the forum looks for a ferry pilot. I say I’ll do it for free + costs.
5) My maintenance organisation needs to move some planes to another country. They ask me, I’m happy to do it with them just covering costs.

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