Menu Sign In Contact FAQ
Banner
Welcome to our forums

PA46 Malibu N264DB missing in the English Channel

Ofher than the profile and earnings of the passenger, there is nothing new in this accident. From an insurance point of view, this is simply “tail risk” where they have to pay out to the limit of their cover. And in this case, if the flight was found to be illegal, not even that.

So other than that this might lead to them reevaluate the tail risk and/or limit of their cover, this is business as usual, every year a few people kill themselves and passengers in this or a similar fashion.

And I hazard a guess that they quite like the fact that in some cases they can get away because there was illegal public transport (which is not yet clear here, I might add).

The press will forget shortly after the funeral and the AAIB report, maybe a brief flurry when the final report is published.

Biggin Hill

Noe wrote:

What do you think of the following:

1) For some reason, I wasn’t able to bring the plane back to my base. I ask to fly it back for me. I pay all your expenses to get there and don’t charge you for the flight.
2) You drove me to the airfield, but once there we had different plans. I went to Le Touquet on my own, but I forgot my passport in your car (not unlikely!). I tell you I’ll pay for your flight there and back (in the Druine Turbulent, let’s not push things) if you bring it to me
3) My sister urgently needs to come to london from Brittany. I ask you to pick her up and bring her and cover all flying costs.
4) Someone on the forum looks for a ferry pilot. I say I’ll do it for free + costs.
5) My maintenance organisation needs to move some planes to another country. They ask me, I’m happy to do it with them just covering costs.

IMHO, you can do 1/, 2/, 4/, 5/ on PPL for 3/ it is a bit tricky the question is does she & me share the same cost of the flight?
For 3, one need to know if your sister is paying any penny for the flight, if no: then we both PPL share the flight equally

Personally, I would like to get “any rewarded back” in “flying units”, like many pilots I don’t like to fill any tax forms

But I will let the legal experts to opine on this

Last Edited by Ibra at 08 Feb 19:40
ESSEX, United Kingdom

In FAA-land none of these examples would be legal, as they all involve remuneration of some sort, even if it’s ‘in kind’. It doesn’t have to be hard cash.

PS: as a PPL, CPL would be different

Last Edited by 172driver at 08 Feb 20:24

1) For some reason, I wasn’t able to bring the plane back to my base. I ask to fly it back for me. I pay all your expenses to get there and don’t charge you for the flight.

Ferry flight / standard bizjet scenario, legal anywhere, pilot needs a CPL. Owner can be in the plane, too.

2) You drove me to the airfield, but once there we had different plans. I went to Le Touquet on my own, but I forgot my passport in your car (not unlikely!). I tell you I’ll pay for your flight there and back (in the Druine Turbulent, let’s not push things) if you bring it to me

As above, no passengers, pilot needs a CPL.

3) My sister urgently needs to come to london from Brittany. I ask you to pick her up and bring her and cover all flying costs.

Not legal.

4) Someone on the forum looks for a ferry pilot. I say I’ll do it for free + costs.

Ferry flight, pilot needs a CPL.

5) My maintenance organisation needs to move some planes to another country. They ask me, I’m happy to do it with them just covering costs.

This is widely done on the PPL scene, where many schools don’t use the based company (dodgy work, even for a school or does good work but “costs too much”) and get PPL holders to do positioning, in return for a discount on the rental. Not a full cost reimbursement.

However a PPL can fly on his employer’s business, with full expense reimbursement (in the UK).

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

172driver wrote:

In FAA-land none of these examples would be legal, as they all involve remuneration of some sort, even if it’s ‘in kind’.

Your are talking about getting expenses or not paying a flying cost?
Not sure about FAR rules, will a renumeration ‘in kind’ be stretched to the case a young son who fly on PPL for free in the family’s Mooney?
Let me ask a simple question, is there a case in the US under FAA where a PPL can fly for free? on a special discount price?

I have this interesting one,

6) Someone want to practice formation flying with me, I asked him to put some fuel in the tank, legal?

Last Edited by Ibra at 08 Feb 20:21
ESSEX, United Kingdom

172driver wrote:

In FAA-land none of these examples would be legal, as they all involve remuneration of some sort, even if it’s ‘in kind’. It doesn’t have to be hard cash.

What’s the remuneration for the pilot? Free flight? To be clear, I meant covering expenses in the spirit of the thing: Reimbursing you of your expenses, say a commercial flight / taxi / meal, not dodgy stuff like paying you 1000 monetary units for the trouble you had walking from the apron to the plane, or paying you a meal at a luxury restaurant.

You can’t ask a friend to move your plane??

Last Edited by Noe at 08 Feb 20:27

I believe it’s a ferry flight.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Ibra wrote:

Let me ask a simple question, is there a case in the US under FAA where a PPL can fly for free? on a special discount price?

AFAIK yes, there are some, I would need to look them up, though. IIRC it’s to do with charity work. I’d really need to dig out the FAR/AIM.

172driver wrote:

IIRC it’s to do with charity work

Yes true lot of that is done in EU as well without a CPL, a friend went to Africa on that, he paid something but not all of the costs but he really put a lot of time and work on it

Peter wrote:

I believe it’s a ferry flight.

It is a bit of narrow interpretation, let me give some true life examples:
1/ How about if he asks you to fly his plane A-to-A to warm up the engine during winter?
2/ How about A-to-B to retreive glider on a PPL?
3/ How that is different from flying an aircraft A-to-B?

Zero money involved (appart from usual bar drink or the hot snack), as far as I know one does not need a CPL for those under EU-laws

Last Edited by Ibra at 08 Feb 20:52
ESSEX, United Kingdom

I don’t see a problem with the missing body. If the pilot survived long enough to undo his seatbelt, he would be unlikely to survive, but might get out. The pax, although fitter, is more likely to be completely bewildered in a situation he has never envisaged.
If the pilot was incapacitated when the aircraft hit the water, he would still be strapped in, but even injured/semiconcious might have the reaction to release the seatbelt. And body could drift away.
Would he be/was the pax strapped in?

Maoraigh
EGPE, United Kingdom
Sign in to add your message

Back to Top