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Empirical calculation of Mass & Balance (G-BAKH crash)

mh wrote:

If you’re flying under the scope of Part NCO, you’re just required to make sure, that mass & balance is within the limitations, specified in the POH (NCO.POL.100).

The operative question will be how. Do it in your head, in the case of cases, how will you present it to a rampchecker or worse, investigator? In my mind, nothing easier than a printed sheet of paper or at least the actual one you have on your Easy VFR or whatever app. You are right, it is not required for Part NCO but that doesn’t mean it’s not a good idea.

LSZH(work) LSZF (GA base), Switzerland

Mooney_Driver wrote:

Do it in your head, in the case of cases, how will you present it to a rampchecker or worse, investigator?

Just answer him. Say, you’ve done it once and with 2 normal POB and full fuel, you can’t possibly overload an Archer or get it out of balance. EASA sais it doesn’t need anything written, so don’t.

Don’t confuse anticipatory obedience with any real requirement.

If I had printed out m&b, flight logs, wx briefings, notam briefings, etc. for every flight, I would have created more waste than the aircraft could carry.

If you need the info on paper, that’s fine. But don’t think it’s necessary for compliance.

Last Edited by mh at 07 Feb 12:57
mh
Aufwind GmbH
EKPB, Germany

Mooney_Driver wrote:

Clearly, if you are ramp checked after a flight and can’t show a loadsheet, you will have questions to answer. It does not necessarily mean you have not done it, but they will quiz you.

NCO.GEN.135 lists the “documents, manuals and information” that “shall be carried on each flight”. I can’t see how anyone carrying out a ramp check can demand to see a document which is not listed. A W&B calculation or loadsheet is not on the list.

Last Edited by Airborne_Again at 07 Feb 14:32
ESKC (Uppsala/Sundbro), Sweden

Airborne_Again wrote:

I can’t see how anyone carrying out a ramp check can demand to see a documents which is not listed.

Exactly. I have been ramp-checked twice and witnessed several others, and noone wanted to see a m&b calculation or even a paper map for that matter.

mh
Aufwind GmbH
EKPB, Germany

I suspect that like most of us I use an app which emails me a copy of the load sheet. I will confess though that when I first started flying the Arrow IV I made an error in the data entry and ended up on a flight with 4 adults, weekend baggage, 2 pilot bags – probably 100kg overweight. Luckily there were no noticeable effects and everything went fine. I won’t do it again though.

EHLE / Lelystad, Netherlands, Netherlands

I do use 2 system with my Arrow IV. I have Th Gyronimo software where I do all the flight calculations, not only w&b, also performance and the SkyDemon.

Common sense also applies flying with 2 adults even with full tanks, despite for that I always like to check CoG.

With my better half and young kids, no margin to facilitate, we are now in the upper margin with full tanks.

Last Edited by lmsl1967 at 07 Feb 13:25
LPSR, Portugal

We now fly fuel to the tabs which gives us three adults and bags and a 4 hour range with reserve

EHLE / Lelystad, Netherlands, Netherlands

Airborne_Again wrote:

NCO.GEN.135 lists the “documents, manuals and information” that “shall be carried on each flight”. I can’t see how anyone carrying out a ramp check can demand to see a document which is not listed. A W&B calculation or loadsheet is not on the list.

Assuming a ramp check after landing, a W&B calculation loadsheet does not mean anything, it will be wrong anyway

On takeoff it will be wrong as well as most of us to put conservative numbers, so I will have one per-filled to max MTOW & GC

Last Edited by Ibra at 07 Feb 14:47
Paris/Essex, France/UK, United Kingdom

Correct it is part NCO, however incorrect M&B is regarded as a serious occurrence under EU 965/2012 and features as item 14 in the Proof of Ramp Inspection form.

Oxford (EGTK), United Kingdom

RobertL18C wrote:

however incorrect M&B is regarded as a serious occurrence under EU 965/2012 and features as item 14 in the Proof of Ramp Inspection form.

So what? The same form features MEL as item 7…

ESKC (Uppsala/Sundbro), Sweden
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