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TB10 short field takeoff

As Pilot_DAR, if you are in that “ugly corner” I don’t think the outcome will be any better if slow & hight & angle (not sure how you would sum them up) are bellow some energy whatever you do with the stick, but there are other conrners for which this is the quickest way to recover: turn in valleys, negative g-lock…

Once you go there it all depends on how fast you change rate of rate on some X quantity delta (you lose concious quickly if you take a quick increase in Gs, too late to notice an engine failure, how quickly your engine loose power and how quickly you push the stick…), but you should not be there in the first place if it is game over (hanging on the prop while on steep climb at Vs is a literal expression not just a figure)

Last Edited by Ibra at 12 Feb 20:29
EGSX, United Kingdom

The theme of my expression of concern is a situation where a pilot has deliberately climbed the first few hundred feet after takeoff, at a speed slower than Vy. I do hope, that for the vast majority of takeoffs, the departure is planned to be along the runway heading, or very nearly so. Therefore bank angles, and turns do not really factor into this discussion. If the engine stops during a climbout at around 200 feet or so (meaning not as high as 500 feet), then according to fixed wing training, and good practice, the resulting forced landing should be straight ahead, only altering heading to avoid obstacles. Once the engine stops, it’s an approach to a landing, and a critical one at that. You certainly want that landing to be the result of a stabilized approach! Thus, abrupt maneuvers, and particularly large bank angles should certainly be avoided! Similarly, pitch changes should be no more aggressive than needed to assure speed management. Negative G? No, not at a couple of hundred feet! I agree that pushing to zero G prevents a stall, but the whole point of this whole thing is to assure that there is enough speed in reserve to assure an approach to stall is not required at any point during the approach! Worse would be pulling G at any point (like compensating for just going to zero G), as pulling G will cause a drag increase, which is the very last thing you want close to the ground, during an obviously stabilized approach!

I do recognize that sailplane techniques may be different, I’m not a sailplane pilot. This discussion did originate on power plane techniques, and that is what I have commented.

This:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helicopter_height%E2%80%93velocity_diagram

Is true for airplanes as it is for helicopters, just airplanes do not have a very slow speed side of the chart, and thus would have a smaller curve, but it’s a reality none the less. If I had my way, these values would be determined and published for all airplanes, so they would form a part of instruction. It’s sad that some pilots are entirely unaware of this risk, and operate in the range while toying with STOL operations. It’s worth noting that commercial and military STOL operations are more commonly in multi engined aircraft, where asymmetric thrust and Vmca are also factors. Therefore, STOL operations focus more on getting the aircraft safely off the ground, and then accelerating before climbing – eliminating this risk. At the end of the day, “STO” stands for short take off, not stupid steep climb out!

Home runway, in central Ontario, Canada

“I do hope, that for the vast majority of takeoffs, the departure is planned to be along the runway heading, or very nearly so.”
Agree for almost all takeoffs.
There are 2 airfields which I use where I start a gentle turn once I cannot land on the runway remaining. Both because If I don’t turn, height will not increase as I climb due to rising ground. Both turning over the sea.

Maoraigh
EGPE, United Kingdom

Pilot_DAR wrote:

I do recognize that sailplane techniques may be different, I’m not a sailplane pilot. This discussion did originate on power plane techniques, and that is what I have commented….Is true for airplanes as it is for helicopters, just airplanes do not have a very slow speed side of the chart

Fixed-wings all fly the same: jets, aeroplanes and gliders it is just matter of time scale, range of hight, speeds and g-forces and how tight those corners…

How they get to plot such H-V graph? I don’t think the same way as exploring/expanding V-G flight envelopes
Any reasons (apart from those that apply to aeroplanes) why a helicopter can’t cope with V=120kt at H=20ft ?

Last Edited by Ibra at 13 Feb 22:56
EGSX, United Kingdom

Ibra wrote:

Any reasons (apart from those that apply to aeroplanes) why a helicopter can’t cope with V=120kt at H=20ft ?

Pilot reaction time if something bad happens.

ESKC (Uppsala/Sundbro), Sweden

Airborne_Again wrote:

Pilot reaction time if something bad happens.

That is no different than low flying in aeroplanes then, I was thinking of something specific to helicopters (e.g. aerodynamic flutter near the ground?)

EGSX, United Kingdom

Maoraigh wrote:

There are 2 airfields which I use where I start a gentle turn once I cannot land on the runway remaining. Both because If I don’t turn, height will not increase as I climb due to rising ground. Both turning over the sea.

Yup, I know a few!

Ibra wrote:

How they get to plot such H-V graph? I don’t think the same way as exploring/expanding V-G flight envelopes

Pretty well, it’s rather scary stuff. I’ve done the low altitude side of the testing, but not the high altitude side. You get to a point where you decide that any more into the “curve” (on the chart), and a safe cushioned landing is not assured.

Ibra wrote:

Any reasons (apart from those that apply to aeroplanes) why a helicopter can’t cope with V=120kt at H=20ft ?

The helicopter pilot must purposefully enter autorotation. Some helicopters also have a maximum speed for entry into autorotation. In an airplane, the pilot just keeps doing what they’re doing, other than to know that they’re about to land somewhere in front!

Home runway, in central Ontario, Canada
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