Airborne_Again wrote:
What does “POGO” even mean.
One other theory I heard of as to why it is called POGO is either because of the pogo dance which moves with small jumps or the pogo stick (some kind of contraption with a coil spring and foot rest people can jump with and do all sorts of acrobatics).
touching wbardorf wrote:
one LFOH-LFPT and then LFPT-LFPM and then tell ATC you don’t actually intend to land at LFPT? Has anyone tried that before?
During my IR training we used to fly POGOs back to back without full stop landings all the time. Just tell ATC that if it were possible you would wish to proceed with the next flightplan while airborne without touching down in Pontoise. Worst case scenario is they will be too busy and you will have to land but they should have the next clearance by the time you are back at the holding point.
Jujupilote wrote:
I can’t find any POGO in the LFPM AIP
There is mention of it in the text part only.
Any IFR flight between LFPO, LFPG, LFPB, LFPN, LFPV, LFPM and even LFOB would qualify as a POGO but not all of them have defined POGO SIDs. The rest of them have no fixed routings and one might get radar vectors or have to use part of a normal SID. I once had to fly part of a SID from Le Bourget after taking off from Pontoise.
wbardorf wrote:
Unfortunately it wouldn’t pass the IFPS validation
Did you try “RMK/POGO” or just “POGO” in field 18? Usually it works fine with Eurocontrol.
AlexG wrote:
Did you try “RMK/POGO” or just “POGO” in field 18? Usually it works fine with Eurocontrol.
I didn’t add the POGO remark in field 18. It now validated! Smart!
Hello from Philippe (ACVL LFPU)
Here is the POGO for LFPM (The POGO are special routing for IFR flights within the TMA Paris where SID, STAR are not possible (between LFPB LFGO LFPT LFPN LFPM)
OLIVIA seem to be the only way to file the FPL (DCT and POGO) from LFPT > LFPM after cancelling the previous (LFOH LFPT ?)
“Routes within the TMA
Cf area chart.”
Arrivals
Cf STAR charts.
Departures
Cf SID charts.
POGO
Joining routes, between the AD situated within the TMA PARIS are called “POGO”.
Departure from MELUN to ORLY-LE BOURGET-VILLACOUBLAYTOUSSUS- BEAUVAIS-PONTOISE-CREIL : after initial departure, according to the recommended instructions, the joining route and the transition to the IAF of the destination AD, will be determined by radar vectoring.
POGO mention will be listed in items 15 and 18 of the FPL.
The others POGO routes within the PARIS TMA are described in AD2 LFPO POGO.
RADAR SERVICE
SEINE APP use the functions of guidance, surveillance radar and radar monitoring to provide the services of traffic control, flight information and alert.
RADIO FAILURE
STAR: See STAR charts.
SID: See SID charts.
POGO DEPARTURE :
“- In VMC and before the MELUN CTR limits, make a turn-around to land on AD.
- In IMC or VMC after the MELUN CTR, continue the flight according to the last acknowledged assigned FL and join the arrival procedure of the destination aerodrome avoiding the LFP 23.”
POGO ARRIVAL:
Apply the procedure defined in AD2 LFPM STAR 1a
I am planning to fly from EGLK to LFPM, stopping in LFAT to clear immigration, this coming Friday and am figuring out what strategy I should use when filing my FPL:
1. File the route that goes around the Paris TMA:
LFAT N0140F070 ABB1Y ABB H40 XORBI H20 PERON/N0139F090 H20 BILGO B3 DIKOL/N0140F080 B3 VATRI G40 ARSIL ARSIL4A LFPM
This looks like the route the RAD/airspace designers want me to file.
2. File the route that seems to cleverly circumvent the RAD restrictions:
LFAT N0140F070 ABB1Y ABB H22 BANTI DCT VELOL J150 VEPET Z293 KOLIV J116 MOPAR/N0140F050 DCT VEXAV/N0140F040 DCT PON DCT VEXIP DCT DOMUS DCT TA DCT DOPAP DCT DIDOS DCT ABORO DCT ROSEX DCT KUVIV DCT ODEBU DCT LALUX DCT PTV PTV4A LFPM
3. Go with the suggestion from the thread above and file two separate FPLs, one to LFPT and then a POGO FPL from LFPT to LFPM, advising ATC along the way that I won’t be landing in LFPT but would rather want to continue on the POGO route:
LFAT N0140F080 ABB1Y ABB H22 BANTI DCT VELOL VELOL8T LFPT and LFPT N0140F030 DCT LFPM
Please note that although the LFPT to LFPM route might look simple, the route from LFPT to LFAT is also far from direct.
Does anyone know what ATC will do in reality for options 1, 2 and 3?
Any thoughts on the above? I am flying this Friday – please let me know if you have any views/insights.
Thanks!
I believe @Guillaume might know about this.
Route 1 is what I would file.
Route 2 is not flyable. You will get a long tactical re-route.
Route 3 will be shorter in term of miles. But regarding POGO flights, AIP says :" These routes do not including holding procedures. Any possible delays are resolved in most cases before engine start up. " So you can get stuck at LFPT for a while.
I’ve certainly Flow a route similar to route 1 (with a bit more overhead, and I was going to LFPN). It sucks! (On a sunny day I would have just cancelled IFR).
Guillaume will probably hate me, but I’ve found by insisting a bit “I’ll take any altitude from 2000 to FL120, will accept routings through uncontrolled airspace, as long as it avoids going round Paris” usually results in getting radar vectors and something fairly sensible.
I would fly VFR around Paris low altitude via LFPP (Plessis-Belleville Airport) via the eastern part of Paris.
