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Does a conversion from 61.75 FAA PPL to standalone FAA PPL affect an FAA IR?

In my FAA IR writeup I have the following text

As with the FAA PPL which can be done as a piggyback (61.75 "based on"; not recommended for reasons given above) it is also possible to do a piggyback FAA IR - using the Foreign Pilot Exam route. This is available to holders of a 61.75 FAA PPL and any ICAO IR. You just sit the FP exam and that's it. Unfortunately there is a big catch:_ the resulting IR has to be completely re-done if the pilot later gets a standalone FAA certificate_ (PPL or CPL). If you have a 61.75 "based on" US certificate, and did the full FAA IR, the FAA will add "Instrument Airplane US Test Passed" to that certificate. If you then get a full FAA PPL or CPL, the IR you have transfers over. If however you do the "Foreign Pilot" IR, for which there is no checkride, you get an IR based on your "foreign" IR. That IR does not transfer over to a standalone certificate! If you later get an unrestricted FAA PPL or CPL, you have to do the full FAA IR to add it to that.

Someone has questioned this recently. Is it correct?

I would have put that note in there for a reason - I can't see how I could have just "invented" it. Also that note has been in my writeup since 2006.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

You were correct. If you carry over your foreign IR by just doing the foreign IR exam, it can't be used/appear on a standalone licence. If you do a US exam and flight test you get US test passed on your 61.75 and that will transfer to a standalone PPL.

EGTK Oxford

OK; that makes sense.

(I've edited my original post to remove a final redundant paragraph).

But you need to have "US test passed" on your 61.75 for it to carry over.

To sit the foreign pilot IR exam, presumably one needs to hold an ICAO IR already... otherwise it doesn't make any sense.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

To sit the foreign pilot IR exam, presumably one needs to hold an ICAO IR already... otherwise it doesn't make any sense.

You can sit the exam at one of the FTOs, no requirements. Once you apply for the license, you have to request IR privileges and proof them for your foreign license. When you go to the FSDO to pick up your temporary FAA license, they want the exam result sheet that you get from the FTO. It's valid for 2 years. I did mine a bit more than a year ago but haven't picked up my FAA/IR license yet...

I wonder if the proposed EASA CBM IR may also be acceptable in the future to the FAA as a piggy back IR (assuming one also does the foreign pilot exam. Does anyone have any views or information on this?

Mostly due to time availibility, I dont want to do the current IR theory or training, and I dont have the time free from work to just to go to the US and do a full FAA IR there. I am hoping by the time that a CBM IR and syllabus is agreed (and I hope that to be not much later than mid-2014 (though maybe thats too hopeful), I will have time to dedicate to this and the learning requirements will be more appropriate. But I want to keep flying my N reg, so unless the FAA are likely to accept a piggy back CBM IR, I either have to decide to do a full FAA IR in the US, or switch to a G-Reg.

PA,

My understanding is that the CBIR is a regular EASA IR and fully ICAO compliant. The only thing different about it, is how you get the qualification.

So I can't see any reason why it wouldn't be recogisned by the FAA in the same way.

Colm

EIWT Weston, Ireland

Thanks Colm, thats what I was hoping. Time will tell I suppose...

The CB IR (if/when it arrives) will be a full ICAO IR - just like the current JAA/EASA IR.

The final test will be the same test as for the current IR (which is very significant in terms of the actually required training i.e. the "min 10 hrs" is obviously going to mislead some customers).

What is becoming a concern is the timing. The EASA FCL derogation ends April 2014 and there is no way the CB IR can be ready in time - with FTO training material, question banks, flight training courses, etc, all set up and running, for April 2014.

So... either the derogation will be extended, maybe by a year or two, or a lot of brown stuff is going to hit the fan as much of IFR GA, a fair chunk of VFR GA, and a large chunk of the corporate / private jet community will be grounded.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

I have a piggybacked FAA PPL and an FAA IR. I’ve decided to go for a standalone FAA CPL for various reasons and, from what I read on this thread, I guess my FAA IR will be transferred to the new standalone FAA CPL automatically?
I believe I only need 10 hours in a complex (i.e. retractable) single to be able to sit the FAA CPL flight test. Any idea where in UK I could do the training, including where I could hire a good retractable single, like an Arrow or a TB20 for 10 hrs with instructor? Btw, I hope to be able to do all training and exams in UK, like I did for my FAA IR in 2012 (Peter, why did you write in your website that is not possible to do FAA flight tests outside US since 2007?).

I am not sure if this deals with the issue, but I have quoted relevant sections of CFR 14 Part 61:

Sec. 61.41

Flight training received from flight instructors not certificated by the FAA

(a) A person may credit flight training toward the requirements of a pilot certificate or rating issued under this part, if that person received the training from:
(1) A flight instructor of an Armed Force in a program for training military pilots of either—
(i) The United States; or
(ii) A foreign contracting State to the Convention on International Civil Aviation.
(2) A flight instructor who is authorized to give such training by the licensing authority of a foreign contracting State to the Convention on International Civil Aviation, and the flight training is given outside the United States.
(b) A flight instructor described in paragraph (a) of this section is only authorized to give endorsements to show training given.

This means that training received from your local non FAA instructor counts towards meeting the experience requirements, but they can not issue any required endorsements.

Sec. 61.65

Instrument rating requirements.

(a) General. A person who applies for an instrument rating must:

(1) Hold at least a current private pilot certificate, or be concurrently applying for a private pilot certificate, with an airplane, helicopter, or powered-lift rating appropriate to the instrument rating sought;
(2) Be able to read, speak, write, and understand the English language. If the applicant is unable to meet any of these requirements due to a medical condition, the Administrator may place such operating limitations on the applicant’s pilot certificate as are necessary for the safe operation of the aircraft;
(3) Receive and log ground training from an authorized instructor or accomplish a home-study course of training on the aeronautical knowledge areas of paragraph (b) of this section that apply to the instrument rating sought;
(4) Receive a logbook or training record endorsement from an authorized instructor certifying that the person is prepared to take the required knowledge test;
(5) Receive and log training on the areas of operation of paragraph (c) of this section from an authorized instructor in an aircraft, flight simulator, or flight training device that represents an airplane, helicopter, or powered-lift appropriate to the instrument rating sought;
(6) Receive a logbook or training record endorsement from an authorized instructor certifying that the person is prepared to take the required practical test;
(7) Pass the required knowledge test on the aeronautical knowledge areas of paragraph (b) of this section; however, an applicant is not required to take another knowledge test when that person already holds an instrument rating; and
(8) Pass the required practical test on the areas of operation in paragraph (c) of this section in—
(i) An airplane, helicopter, or powered-lift, appropriate to the rating sought; or
(ii) A flight simulator or a flight training device appropriate to the rating sought and approved for the specific maneuver or procedure performed. If a flight training device is used for the practical test, the instrument approach procedures conducted in that flight training device are limited to one precision and one nonprecision approach, provided the flight training device is approved for the procedure performed.

(b) Aeronautical knowledge. A person who applies for an instrument rating must have received and logged ground training from an authorized instructor or accomplished a home-study course on the following aeronautical knowledge areas that apply to the instrument rating sought:

(1) Federal Aviation Regulations of this chapter that apply to flight operations under IFR;
(2) Appropriate information that applies to flight operations under IFR in the “Aeronautical Information Manual;”
(3) Air traffic control system and procedures for instrument flight operations;
(4) IFR navigation and approaches by use of navigation systems;
(5) Use of IFR en route and instrument approach procedure charts;
(6) Procurement and use of aviation weather reports and forecasts and the elements of forecasting weather trends based on that information and personal observation of weather conditions;
(7) Safe and efficient operation of aircraft under instrument flight rules and conditions;
(8) Recognition of critical weather situations and windshear avoidance;
(9) Aeronautical decision making and judgment; and
(10) Crew resource management, including crew communication and coordination.

(c) Flight proficiency. A person who applies for an instrument rating must receive and log training from an authorized instructor in an aircraft, or in a flight simulator or flight training device, in accordance with paragraph (g) of this section, that includes the following areas of operation:

(1) Preflight preparation;
(2) Preflight procedures;
(3) Air traffic control clearances and procedures;
(4) Flight by reference to instruments;
(5) Navigation systems;
(6) Instrument approach procedures;
(7) Emergency operations; and
(8) Postflight procedures.

(d) Aeronautical experience for the instrument-airplane rating. A person who applies for an instrument-airplane rating must have logged:

(1) Except as provided in paragraph (g) of this section, 50 hours of cross-country flight time as pilot in command, of which 10 hours must have been in an airplane; and
(2) Forty hours of actual or simulated instrument time in the areas of operation listed in paragraph (c) of this section, of which 15 hours must have been received from an authorized instructor who holds an instrument-airplane rating, and the instrument time includes:
(i) Three hours of instrument flight training from an authorized instructor in an airplane that is appropriate to the instrument-airplane rating within 2 calendar months before the date of the practical test; and
(ii) Instrument flight training on cross country flight procedures, including one cross country flight in an airplane with an authorized instructor, that is performed under instrument flight rules, when a flight plan has been filed with an air traffic control facility, and that involves—
(A) A flight of 250 nautical miles along airways or by directed routing from an air traffic control facility;
(B) An instrument approach at each airport; and
(C) Three different kinds of approaches with the use of navigation systems.
KUZA, United States
14 Posts
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