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How NOT to depart IFR...

Incedibly chaotic departure there. Unfortunately, the radio exchanges with clearance delivery are not in the video. Additionally, that pilot that was initially doing the radio was clearly not up to speed for this – literally.



Mainz (EDFZ) & Egelsbach (EDFE), Germany

Will be interesting to hear what they said in those ground delivery exchanges?

It feels like getting stuck by arriving for fuel in France at lunch time, you just leave aircraft in front of the pump and go for lunch as well

As always, “be careful what you wish for” applies

Last Edited by Ibra at 09 Jul 20:19
Paris/Essex, France/UK, United Kingdom

I don’t really understand. What happened here? Why did the pilot agree to join the pattern when the intent was to fly over the Atlantic?

ESME, ESMS

Likely, they would have faced a big delay had they wanted to depart IFR straight away. A typical problem in the busy areas of the US. So, they likely agreed something with ground/clearance delivery that they would initially depart VFR, and then go IFR some miles out. But boy, they were totally unprepared for this…

Mainz (EDFZ) & Egelsbach (EDFE), Germany

Very weird. My observations:

  • They somehow failed to get an IFR departure. Perhaps their flight plan was lost, so ATC assumed some sort of local flight, instead of Athens LGAV
  • OR they had agreed to depart VFR to get out of there, AND
  • The apparently British pilot would not have understood some of that ATCO’s instructions (I would not have)

The problem with VFR departures on an IFR flight plan is that you need to have a plan to execute if the IFR clearance never arrives. In easy situations like this it doesn’t matter because you can continue all the way home at 5000ft or whatever (say 100nm). But in their case they had to have a really good plan in case of a delay. Ever tried flying a jet at 1500ft?

The funny thing is that they could not land for 5 hours, due to being above max landing weight!

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Peter wrote:

The apparently British pilot would not have understood some of that ATCO’s instructions (I would not have)

Huh? Crystal clear and very well handled. He got these Vistajet plonkers who obviously had no idea what they were doing into the IFR system. I would expect tea without bikkies for these two guys.

Crystal clear and very well handled

If you live in the US, as you do, yes. Same as the many threads about strong French accents (legible only to French people) etc; substitute any language of your choice since it works for all of them.

They clearly had problems with the whole situation but the main Q I would have is: what was their plan? You can’t fly VFR all the way to Greece. Maybe they expected to pick up an IFR clearance quickly once airborne.

(On an IFR flight) I would not do a VFR departure in Europe unless I had a pretty solid plan from ATC AND knew the airspace, OR could fly all the way to the destination VFR.

It is also possible the controller (approach?) had no idea they had agreed to depart VFR on a flight to Athens. They might have agreed that with another controller (tower?).

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Peter wrote:

They clearly had problems with the whole situation but the main Q I would have is: what was their plan?

Well that baffles me as well. From the audio we have they appear to have expected a VFR pattern (“1500 in the downwind”). Knowing how the IFR system works here I am at a loss to figure out what their plan was. Hard to say without hearing the preceding conversations with clearance delivery and ground. Only possible explanation I can come up with (which actually chimes with the initial instructions by the tower controller) is that ATC thought they were doing some sort of check flight, once around the pattern. The controller initially clearly expected them to land back at KBFI.

Peter wrote:

OR could fly all the way to the destination VFR

Yes, but then you will be in your own waiting for a clearance that may not arrive, I think they just wanted to hang around VFR with tons of fuel on board and hope they will get kicked out of the place IFR as soon as possible?

Will be interesting to know the weather state given ATC emphasis on “remain VFR” (or appropriately “remain VMC”)

Paris/Essex, France/UK, United Kingdom

Ibra wrote:

Will be interesting to know the weather state given ATC emphasis on “remain VFR” (or appropriately “remain VMC”)

KBFI 131853Z VRB04KT 10SM CLR 21/12 A2994 RMK AO2 SLP137 T02110122
KBFI 131953Z 22006KT 10SM CLR 22/12 A2994 RMK AO2 SLP137 T02220122
KBFI 132053Z 00000KT 10SM CLR 24/12 A2993 RMK AO2 SLP134 T02390122 58001

ESKC (Uppsala/Sundbro), Sweden
55 Posts
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