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Autorouter issues and questions (merged)

Eurocontrol doesn’t check the equipment list when validating the route – except checking 8.33, IIRC.

This debate has been going on for at least 10 years. It would appear the reason they don’t enforce it is because a lot of “State aircraft” and military aircraft don’t have the kit either.

In so much of aviation, the emperor has no clothes at all

A KNS80 is illegal except with antenna filters for FM immunity, and is near-useless in reality because ATC frequently assigns navaids way outside their coverage volume.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Ultranomad wrote:

For example, with this one:

As we say in French, “yes but no”. What you propose there is a non-GPS RNAV equipment. Dimme was asking autorouter for a route for an airplane that has absolutely no RNAV equipment, meaning his question should have been, more precisely:

How can one navigate to RNAV waypoints without RNAV equipment?
ELLX

Can you post the route? I just want to check if those are really GPS (only) RNAV points or the route can be flown using e.g. two VOR receivers and DME.

Last Edited by Emir at 28 Aug 17:05
LDZA LDVA, Croatia

NCO.IDE.A.195 Navigation equipment
(a) Aeroplanes operated over routes that cannot be navigated by reference to visual landmarks shall be equipped with any navigation equipment necessary to enable them to proceed in accordance with:
(1) the ATS flight plan; if applicable; and
(2) the applicable airspace requirements.

and

AMC1 NCO.IDE.A.195
Navigation equipment
NAVIGATION WITH VISUAL REFERENCE TO LANDMARKS
Where aeroplanes, with the surface in sight, can proceed according to the ATS flight plan by navigation with visual reference to landmarks, no additional equipment is needed to comply with NCO.IDE.A.195 (a)(1)

So if the flight is non-commercial, and you are able to navigate visually in a straight line between waypoints, then, as stated specifically in Part-NCO, no nav equipment is required, IFR or VFR :-)

Last Edited by huv at 28 Aug 17:28
huv
EKRK, Denmark

@Emir here it is:

ESMS N0106F060 SALLO3B SALLO M44 KOGIM M725 RODEP T280 KETAP DCT ANEBO DCT PEPOL DCT GODUR Z998 OSKAN OSKAN4B EDDC

Btw, SY/S does not include DME. You could probably try to navigate with VOR/VOR, but that would require a lot of preparation and constantly tracking radials along the route. It would be particularly cumbersome in this Cessna that only has one VOR receiver and you would have to constantly switch frequencies back and forth.

ESME, ESMS

Dimme wrote:

Btw, SY/S does not include DME.

You can’t legally fly SALO3B without DME and practically it’s hard without two VORs. OSKAN4B is bit easier because it’s direct to DRN VOR. The rest of the route seems to be flyable with two VORs and DME – there would be some guessing for these DCTs but I believe I would nailed it.

LDZA LDVA, Croatia

Isn’t B-RNAV mandatory for IFR in Europe ? To allow long DCTs for example.

LFOU, France

For Europe RNAV 5 is the requirement for ENR see AIP for details, which is B-RNAV in old non PBN terminology. In Germany you can receive a DCT of over 270 Nm how will you do this with a KSN?

EBST

Long before the days of GPS, I used to fly a jet with nothing but VOR, DME and ADF.

Whenever we were asked if we could accept a direct routing (implying whether we had INS, which we didn’t) we would say yes (to save time and fuel).

We would then just get on with with a combination of DR and mental RNAV (ie calculating VOR/DME positions in our heads and adjusting track to remain close to track). No ATC ever noticed or commented.

We would have been within what is now called RNAV 5 at all times, and anyway, if ATC give a 270nm direct, they don’t have a precise line in their heads or on their displays. They are giving it because precise positioning is not required (if necessary for spacing, they revert to vectors, as we know).

It is somewhat harder work, but not impossible, by any means.

EGKB Biggin Hill

Timothy wrote:

Long before the days of GPS, I used to fly a jet with nothing but VOR, DME and ADF.

Although I didn’t fly jets, I did my IR training flying TB20 equipped just like that and later on some 30 IFR flight hours in my TB20 with same equipment (when GNS was on repair). I flew DCTs by heading, checking occasionally position against VORs and paper map – hard but feasible.

LDZA LDVA, Croatia
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