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What did I do wrong, 2: UK, getting ATC to accept that one is IFR

Yesterday, travelling from Dundee EGPN to Teeside EGNV, I filed a flight plan via the Newcastle EGNT overhead at 4000 feet from Dundee to Teeside. En route, I was handed from Scottish Info to Newcastle Radar with that intent. Talking with the Newcastle controller I had told him that I was, briefly as it transpired, in solid IMC i.e. IFR and in any case above cloud. Despite all this I was denied a transit and dumped by default into diving below and around the Newcastle zone. The controller was
even brazen enough to try to give me an altitude limit OCAS. This controller’s actions were most unhelpful and perhaps even dangerous.

I have filed a CAA Denial of Airspace report and also emailed a copy of it direct to the unit. Experience suggests that there will be no response.

What did I do wrong? My plan was filed via SkyDemon and I selected a fixed altitude thinking that would make it an IFR plan but apparently not.

All advice gratefully received.
Thank you

Last Edited by Joe-fbs at 24 Sep 11:50
strip near EGGW

It does not matter if you are VFR or IFR.
If you are „up there“ and Newcastle (a sleepy airport) flat out refuses you into the airspace, then that‘s unacceptable.

Mainz (EDFZ) & Egelsbach (EDFE), Germany

In the UK, an IFR flight plan means no more than a VFR one, unless it meets several conditions. I recommend a quick read through this and this. Not recent but valid today.

If you file a FP with an IFR component (I Z or Y) it goes to Eurocontrol (also known as IFPS or CFMU) and they check it for validity, according to thousands of complex rules. Normally people use one of the automatic tools for doing these (Autorouter or Rocketroute or more recently Foreflight are coming in).

Eurocontrol distribute a validated FP to the country[ies] in question. What they do with it depends. The UK examines it for “seriousness” and chucks it away if “not serious enough”. The rules are secret but basically – in the south i.e. London Control – they check that it lies mostly or wholly in CAS. If they accept it, they enter it into their system and then you can do “proper IFR” flying (usually this needs oxygen, due to the required altitude). In the UK you needs to be FL090 to be fairly sure but even that won’t do it if in Class G.

Then a departure involves a handover to London Control (NOT London Info; they are just an area FIS and almost useless) and then you get cleared into CAS. I have done various videos with the ATC sound track; one is in this writeup. But you need the full IR for this. You cannot do Eurocontrol IFR on the IMCR because it is valid UK Class D-G only so even just within the UK it is useless due to lots of low level Class A.

If your FP doesn’t meet the acceptance conditions, you are just a “VFR” flight, regardless of conditions. There is no clearance for the flight, other than what you can get from each CAS owner. Sometimes they clear you, sometimes not.

SD is no good for Eurocontrol IFR; you need the proper software tools to generate the valid route.

It is a complicated topic, with lots of quirks.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Out of curiosity, what type of aircraft are you flying?

EGSX

Peter wrote:

You cannot do Eurocontrol IFR on the IMCR because it is valid UK Class D-G only so even just within the UK it is useless due to lots of low level Class A.

Peter, can I do a Eurocontrol IFR FP in Scotland on IR(R)? Say, I fly from EGPF Glasgow to EGPC Wick using the following FP (yes, needs oxygen):
EGPF N0109F110 FOYLE3B FOYLE DCT INBAS N560 WIK EGPC
And then perform an IAP?
That would be wholly outside A-C class airspace.

EGTR

TimR, a Maule.

strip near EGGW

OK, thank you everyone. My learning:

1. When I got “Remain outside while I sort your clearance” I should have been more proactive. Either asking for an estimate or immediately giving up.

2. Airports and handlers asking me to fly a flight plan is completely pointless.

3. I did not understand the flight plan service in SkyDemon.

Last Edited by Joe-fbs at 24 Sep 16:48
strip near EGGW

arj1 wrote:

That would be wholly outside A-C class airspace.

I don’t see why not, then. I’ve done it before (via avpex, so long time ago!).

(Some people even file in A-C and get away with it, but then when something goes wrong, perhaps because due to non integrated airspace you busted some airspace while you thought you were clear, you might get in trouble).

Joe-fbs wrote:

a Maule.

Just say an “IFR equipped Maule + credit card number” next time

Outside class A-C, you can fly IFR en-route/approach even on those SD VFR flight plans (they are not validated and no one look at them, besides in the UK you can just self declare IFR), if you are planing to land IFR and have communicated that early, you can insist on doing that ILS even if they want a “visual landing landing”

Just say you want to remain IFR ask to fly ILS first and go-around for a free visual circuit/landing

In the other hand to practice approach, most airports need you details before hand (basically phone or credit card number associated with the reg), if they know them already they may take you in the air and wave their slots/bookings subject to availability, also, they don’t like “cancel IFR services” just above the threshold

Last Edited by Ibra at 24 Sep 18:07
Paris/Essex, France/UK, United Kingdom

Yes; it is possible to file a valid (and workable) Eurocontrol FP without going to Class A.

You can do it in Scotland, and you can do it over trivial distances in the UK. Probably not under London Control; more likely under a local unit which will them dump you out.

But the benefit is basically zero. Within the UK, the whole point of IFR in the Eurocontrol system – like this – is to get to say FL100 and above the clouds, especially in the winter when you get icing in any IMC no matter how low, and have an easy flight, instead of begging every ATCO every 20 miles for a transit, with your BP going through the roof as you approach their CAS at 140kt and are wondering if they will ever call you back, let alone let you in.

I think, from much circumstantial evidence, that the changes made some years ago which cause London Control to bin most FPs (for pistons, at least) under about FL090 were the result of a number of IMCR holders doing precisely this. LC can’t query the pilot’s privileges but they can dump a flight plan which “looks like” having come from an IMCR holder.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom
24 Posts
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