Hello,
I am wondering whether anyone has a view on logging flight time and IMC time for the following situation for the following hypothetical situation in one single flight in a SEP (i.e. only one pilot required as per type certificate) under FAA regulations:
1. I fly a couple of approaches in actual IMC and simulated IMC with a safety pilot.
Pretty straightforward, I can log PIC time and IMC time
2. The safety pilot (CPL with IR) then flies a couple of approaches in actual IMC from the right seat. Although he is appropriately rated, as the insurance does not allow him to act as PIC on the flight due to lack of type experience, we agree that I would continue to act as PIC.
a) As I am the designated PIC, I am planning to log this time as PIC (whereas he doesn’t log the time as PIC).
b) Then I started wondering whether I could log IMC time and the approaches flown.
Re a), do you think I could log this time as PIC? What about b)?
14CFR 61.51 (e)(1)(i) (sole manipulator) does not apply.
14CFR 61.51 (e)(1)(ii) (sole occupant) does not apply.
14CFR 61.51 (e)(1)(iii) says “When the pilot, except for a holder of a sport or recreational pilot certificate, acts as pilot in command of an aircraft for which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted;”
14CFR 61.51 (e)(1)(iii) technically wouldn’t apply either as of course the aircraft does not require more than one pilot and the regulations would have allowed him to fly the aircraft and fly the approaches except that the insurance restrictions wouldn’t allow him to do so which is therefore why we agree that I take on the PIC responsibility for the flight with all the responsibilities that come with it, including being responsible for airspace violations etc.
So what is your view whether I could log this time as PIC? Similarly, what about him? If I didn’t log the time as PIC, could he really do so given the insurance restriction and us explicitly agreeing that I would act as PIC? One can’t end up having a situation where neither pilot logs PIC – that would imply that no one has responsibility for the flight!
What about then IMC time and logging the approaches?
Would the answer differ under EASA regs?
Disclaimer : I am not the big expert here.
If your friend flies the airplane and you are PIC, you are his safety pilot.
You can log PIC if you are PIC or if you are sole manipulator.
So as long as your are PIC, you can log PIC. In the FARs, 2 people can be logging PIC time at the same time, that’s the trick (that needs getting used to).
Jujupilote wrote:
You can log PIC if you are PIC or
The FAR’s don’t say that! 14CFR 61.51 (e) lists all the conditions for logging PIC time and being PIC is never in itself a sufficient condition.
Under EASA rules the PIC can always log PIC time, but then EASA is instead more restrictive in allowing pilots who are not PIC to log PIC time.
1. I fly a couple of approaches in actual IMC and simulated IMC with a safety pilot.
Pretty straightforward, I can log PIC time and IMC time
According to 14 CFR 61.51(g) instrument time is recorded.
2. The safety pilot (CPL with IR) then flies a couple of approaches in actual IMC from the right seat. Although he is appropriately rated, as the insurance does not allow him to act as PIC on the flight due to lack of type experience, we agree that I would continue to act as PIC.
a) As I am the designated PIC, I am planning to log this time as PIC (whereas he doesn’t log the time as PIC).
The acting pilot-in-command may not log pilot-in-command flight time while the other pilot is the sole manipulator of the controls in actual instrument flight conditions because the operation does not require a safety pilot. Conversely in simulated instrument flight the acting pilot-in-command, being the pilot not flying but acting as the safety pilot required by 14 CFR 91.109(c), may log pilot-in-command time. Note that 14 CFR 61.51(g) does not say “instrument meteorological conditions.” The language consistently used is “instrument flight conditions.” The test to be applied is whether the aircraft may be controlled by visual reference to fixed external features. To see when this distinction is relevant search this forum for “moonless” or see this post (link).
In your example the pilot flying, who does not require an instrument rating, may record the pilot-in-command flight time as instrument flight time in credit towards an instrument rating. See interpretation number 3 to Taylor Grayson given 6 Jul 2010 (link).
b) Then I started wondering whether I could log IMC time and the approaches flown.
In actual instrument flight conditions you cannot log anything except as an authorized instructor giving instrument flight instruction or when more than one pilot is required by the operation, eg by the aircraft type certificate. Converting the operation to simulated instrument flight enables your logging time as pilot-in-command but not as instrument flight time. Someone should invent a whizz wheel for rapidly working out these configurations.
One can’t end up having a situation where neither pilot logs PIC – that would imply that no one has responsibility for the flight!
A lawful but rare counterexample to that premise may be found in a passenger, or certificated pilot being neither rated nor endorsed for the aircraft, assuming control following the incapacitation of the acting pilot-in-command. The US logging rules are made only for meeting recent or aeronautical experience requirements and as such they are incommensurable with insurance requirements.
What about then IMC time and logging the approaches?
In your example only an authorized instructor may log instrument flight time including approaches, eg for recent instrument experience purposes. See interpretation to Ron Levy 7 Aug 2008 (link).
A safety pilot is only required under the regulations when according to 91.109(c) the aircraft is operated in simulated instrument conditions:
(c) No person may operate a civil aircraft in simulated instrument flight unless—
(1) The other control seat is occupied by a safety pilot who possesses at least a private pilot certificate with category and class ratings appropriate to the aircraft being flown.
(2) The safety pilot has adequate vision forward and to each side of the aircraft, or a competent observer in the aircraft adequately supplements the vision of the safety pilot;
Actual instrument conditions are not simulated instrument conditions, they are conditions under which the control of the aircraft is not possible using outside visual references and therefore control of the aircraft requires the use of the flight instruments. When visual references are available, one must use something like a hood to simulate instrument conditions, and therefore 91.109(c) requires a safety pilot rated in the aircraft class and category. There is no requirement that the safety pilot be current or qualified to act as PIC in the aircraft, only that they are rated. So a pilot who only has flown a Cessna 172 and does not hold a complex or high performance rating can be the safety pilot in a Bonanza.
So any of the approaches you flew that were not under actual instrument conditions required that a safety pilot be used. If you were acting as PIC and performing the duties of a safety pilot, you would need to be rated and current to act as PIC and can log the time as PIC. You can’t log the time as instrument when you are safety pilot. If the conditions are actual instrument, and you are also a CFII and providing training, you may log the time as PIC. You may also log any actual instrument time while conducting training in actual instrument conditions and if an approach is performed under actual instrument conditions during training, the CFII may count the approach towards meeting their own instrument currency requirements.
So, bottom line, if you are the pilot acting as PIC and also the safety pilot, you may log PIC time for the time the regulations require a safety pilot. The regulations do not require a safety pilot under actual instrument conditions, so in those circumstances, you log nothing.
Insurance has nothing to do with logging.Also, there is a distinction in the FAA regulations between “acting as PIC” and logging of “PIC”. One does not log “acting as PIC” time per say, only “PIC” time.
