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IFR northwest departure from LSZG at FL100 or below

Does anyone know whether ATC would generally issue vectors for a shortcut to the northwest from Grenchen?

Whilst FPLing I noticed that all the airways going to the northwest towards point HR have an MEA of FL115 or FL145 on the French side, most likely due to airspace structure and LoAs as terrain is not the issue here. When filing at FL100 the only possible routings are via Geneva and Dijon which adds a considerable detour to the journey.

The French side should have no issue with me flying IFR in uncontrolled airspace (but actually most of it on the French side would be in D or E anyway) but as Switzerland does not allow IFR in G outside of RMZs and published routes I can’t file a Z FPL with a VFR leg to a pick-up point within France if I needed to depart IFR due to weather.

Does anyone have experience with that routing and does anyone know whether ATC would be able to offer a shortcut towards HR? There is plenty of controlled airspace in that area and there is a corridor that does not touch any restricted areas that might potentially be active so the Swiss controller should be able to vector me towards the northwest.

At present my departure routing (generated by AR) looks as follows:

LSZG N0140F080 FRI8V FRI G5 SPR A1 DJL A6 SOMDA B13 ARSIL G40 VATRI/N0139F090 B3 BILGO …

EGTF, EGLK, United Kingdom

I had the same question and looked into this. Sometime next year this situation should improve (a bit later also to the Northeast). But in the meantime, ATC is aware of this problem and tries to give short-cuts in-flight. However, I wouldn’t plan on it, because NW of Grenchen in France there are lots of MOAs and such.

IFR in class G is allowed in Switzerland per Part-SERA (I think the AIP has still not been amended), but any airspace above 2000ft AGL is class E. That’s why flying IFR OCAS is not a practical option.

My experience is in Geneva. Similar situation .
Swiss ATC prefer to keep me on departure routes which will send me to Lyon :-((( until handover to French ATC and inform them about the request.
The French will promptly issue the shortcut then.
When they have low workload they sometimes take the time to coordinate a shortcut out of Geneva airspace but they almost always have a lot to do, so I fully understand.
I ask politely anyway and sometimes it works, but it has been unpredictable…

LSGG, LFEY, Switzerland

I’m not being particularly helpful here but did this exact flight back to the UK this summer.

I just departed VFR and skirted the 9nm NW (lower terrain) to the French border before picking up IFR. They initially cleared me DCT BILGO I think, which was later revised closer to Paris.

Unless it’s an awful day I’d suggest doing something like that.

EGSX

Thanks all for your answers and suggestions. Looking at the MVA charts that indicate that vectoring at 6,000 ft should be possible towards the Basel TMA, I have changed the route to the following for tomorrow:

LSZG N0140F070 WIL R73 HOC/N0140F120 G4 HR/N0140F080 B3 RINTI … (quite interesting that AR did not offer up this one although it is shorter and I relaxed the autorouting altitude constraint to include FL120)

At least it ensures that the departure is in the right direction and relevant sectors have the flight plans. Also the MEA for G4 on the Swiss side is 6,000 ft and steps up to FL115 after passing the FIR boundary into France so I assume that I can stay at 6,000 ft on the Swiss side and then continue at 6,000 ft on the French side as there is no terrain and no restricted area to worry about. In fact it is controlled airspace so I should just be able to continue after handover from the Swiss side.

@ArcticChiller, thanks for your point on IFR in G. The AIP has been updated and modified a while ago, however there are still pages on skyguide and BAZL which refer to the prohibition of IFR in G so don’t want to specifically force and try that point with a Z FPL and IFR pickup on the French side, especially given that I will need to deal with terrain and icing.

Will report back after the flight tomorrow…

Last Edited by wbardorf at 04 Oct 15:19
EGTF, EGLK, United Kingdom

I flew from east of Zurich to France and back in August, IFR both times via HOC G4 HR and also needed to relax the constraint to FL120 as you did. However I was cleared up to FL100 both ways on that routing without any specific request on my side. Eastbound in France, I was asked at one point if I wanted to go higher or stay at FL100 and the crossing at FL100 was fine. There may be a time dependency related to the military, but it certainly seems that ATC on both sides are aware that FL100 is often preferred and are able to accommodate. This appears to be just like most cases where the plan file (route and/or altitude) is not the one eventually flown. In any case, although FL100 may be preferable without oxygen FL120 is legal and doable in most aircraft.

LSZK, Switzerland

Just to follow up that my partner pilot did not want to take the icing risk so we didn’t fly down to LSZG and then to EGLK so unfortunately no PIREP at this point…

EGTF, EGLK, United Kingdom
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