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Engine out after departure LSZH today

Peter, congratulations for showing peak performance when it was most needed, great job! Turning around at a major hub and telling the controller you´ll land opposite to the runway in use is not easy, and it certainly helps having a good plan of action before departure. I´m glad you were in VMC, this could have been ugly with low ceilings.

EDFE, EDFZ, KMYF, Germany

Penn Yann in NY did a great job repairing my engine to my specs (special cylinder work…) back in 2009 and they issued a dual release. Price was very reasonable, but EUR/USD is not so favourable nowadays. They will issue dual release so EASA-acceptable.

OTOH UK shops have become attractive due to EUR/GBP, but who knows if you have to pay import duties (Brexit??) to bring it to Germany! I believe Mclaren are the only ones getting quite unanimous endorsement. Use UK business relationships at your own risk in the Brexit environment, though.

Either way, they will likely not be able to use your old engine so they will have to look for one from scratch. Penn Yann is likely to be more succesful at that since their market is relatively large, unlike EU.

If you are looking for a Continental new or rebuilt engine, then airpowerinc will give you as good a price as any. You can get quick price references on their website. I dont know if that is still the case, but they used to have a special deal from Continental whereby they took your core no matter the condition.

Last Edited by Antonio at 12 Oct 17:20
Antonio
LESB, Spain

IME, the US shops are a lot cheaper so even shipping by DHL (at about 3k) is still cheaper than European shops. Plus in the US you can find shops with a constant good reputation, which is almost impossible in Europe. The main (rational) reasons given by European owners for not using US shops are

  • warranty is de facto impossible to implement (counter argument: a warranty on a parachute is similar!)
  • most people have no idea about shipping and it can be complicated, with the commercial invoices etc (in this case Peter is probably not shipping anything there)

Re shipping, this is worth a read but IMHO disregard the usual “fanboy” arguments. The only thread degeneration missing there is LOP

If buying from the US, make 100000% sure they mark the box and all the documents as AIRCRAFT PARTS. This avoids import duty.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

In Switzerland, Cermec is my recommendation for any engine related work. They are also very good in sourcing material for repair/new engines.

As you are basically set to swap your engine at ZRH airport, MFGZ Maintenance will most likely be who does that job, so I would talk to them asap. They might have ideas too on how to proceed. If you are under a CAMO, involve them from the start, again, they might have ideas how to sort this out fast.

The way the engine looks, it is doubtful that anything can be used from it, but I would not rule it out totally, so an exchange with a factory remanufactured engine with a core deduction may still be possible. Accessories may still be usable too. Again, Cermec or any other competent engine shop may well be whom to talk to to assess this, otherwise with Continental directly or any other shop who does exchanges like this. Whatever core can be saved, it will directly impact your final bill.

LSZH(work) LSZF (GA base), Switzerland

Mooney_Driver wrote:

As you are basically set to swap your engine at ZRH airport, MFGZ Maintenance will most likely be who does that job, so I would talk to them asap. […] If you are under a CAMO, involve them from the start

Wise words indeed

Antonio
LESB, Spain

Congratulations Peter ! Well done! Lucky that the engine didn’t stop earlier on the climb.
eddsPeter wrote:

Total time in the air 6 minutes.

Do you remember at what altitude did this happen, since you could to the “impossible turn” ?
How do you feel now ? Have you done your self/mental debrief? I think it is important, (at least the others say so),
to do a short fly asap to regain confidence.

ES?? - Sweden

My very personal opnion:

  • Never ever let the maintennance company contract any major engine work. You will have intense discussions with the engine rebuilder and if the maintenance company is the legal customer the engine shop might not talk to you. I have seen bad cases in this regard.
  • At least investigate to unmount the wings. Even if you do not do it in the end I have seen maintenance companies quoting crazy amounts if they realize the customer has no alternative.
  • Investigate the customs situation. Else you might end up paying VAT etc. twice for the engine first in Switzerland and then again in Germany.
  • Insist on all engine quotes to include the bad condition of your engine core. Probably not even worth the shipping cost to send it to the US. I just had a short look online and the core value of such an engine is probably a bit over 15000 USD which has to be added to all engine quotes in this context.
  • Probably not even worth to ship this engine out for any kind of repair or overhaul. That might just cost additional money just to hear it can not be repaired anywy. Probably look for a new engine right away.
  • No matter what they tell you this will take months to get the plane back in the air. So make sure you can store/protect the plane in any way without crazy parking fees.
  • The total repair will probably be close to 80k USD plus whatever taxes apply so take some time to research all the details before rushing anything.

I have been there with an TIO-540-AE2A and unfortunately if the crankcase is destroyed things are bad…

www.ing-golze.de
EDAZ

Thunderstorm18 wrote:

Do you remember at what altitude did this happen, since you could to the “impossible turn” ?

I am not Peter but out of the track it happened at around 2500 ft AAL. Looking at the ground track and the altitude figures, there was enough altitude and the flight path indicates a very different track than the usually impossible low level turns.

The altitude was sufficient to give maneuvering room and the position gave good options too. Generally, the “Impossible turn” is discouraged below 1000 ft AGL and is questioned then. However, in this case he was at pattern altitude and already turning towards the left as per SID. So if you look at the ground track shown a bit earlier, this was not a 270/45 degree turn but rather some subsequent turns, followed by a base leg towards the landing runway and a final turn about 1 NM before touchdown. So a very different scenario than a low level “impossible” turn.

Out of this position and with the prevailing weather, Runway 10 was also the best choice.

Generally, the way I look at it, we are not talking of anything close to the “impossible turn” scenario here but with 2500 ft AAL and the position where the failure occurred, there was comparatively enough time to do some maneuvering back. The result speaks for itself. Obviously this takes very good piloting as well as good nerves to accomplish. Peter rose to the challenge with distinction.

LSZH(work) LSZF (GA base), Switzerland

Sebastian_G wrote:

Never ever let the maintennance company contract any major engine work.

Not the way it is usually done by them. They will advise him on companies they know, but as I know from my own overhaul, the engine work is always done and billed e.t.c. directly by the engine shop, not by the maintenance organisation. The advice is valid though should any maintenance company attempt to do that.

Sebastian_G wrote:

At least investigate to unmount the wings. Even if you do not do it in the end I have seen maintenance companies quoting crazy amounts if they realize the customer has no alternative.

I’ve seen Beechcraft airplanes transported that way, incidently there was a Travel Air stored in that very hangar for a while unmounted. MFGZ do not have the reputation to exploit such situations however, the way I know them they will try to help. It should also be possible to do a transit document for customs if the plane is to be transported that way.

Sebastian_G wrote:

Investigate the customs situation. Else you might end up paying VAT etc. twice for the engine first in Switzerland and then again in Germany.

Very good advice. It may help here that the MFGZ maintenance shop is in the customs area itself. Import into Switzerland may not be necessary thus, but it needs to be investigated. I think there is enough competence at the airport to figure that out. MFGZ does maintenace for D-Regs and others as well AFAIK and if not them, certainly the Cessna Citation service center next door knows how this is handled. I’d be surprised if MFGZ flight maintenance do not know how to handle this however.

Sebastian_G wrote:

No matter what they tell you this will take months to get the plane back in the air. So make sure you can store/protect the plane in any way without crazy parking fees.

If the maintenance company take the airplane in then there are no airport charges. Usually, if they do the work of the actual engine change, they will be helpful with that too.

As for assessing the engine, that is where a local shop like Cermec might be of assistance to deternine if there is any core value left. They are near Lausanne, so getting the engine to them is a question of renting a van and driving it there, MUCH cheaper than shipping. Customs question is again to be determined for that though. The only thing I see remotely possible is that if the crankshaft was not damaged, Continental might consider some core value towards a remanufactured or overhauled engine. I guess that is worth assessing,even if the end result may well be that the engine will end up on a local scrap heap. As the SUST is involved however, it is well possible that they will actually dismantle it and then whether the crankshaft is usable will become clear. Shipping that one anywhere may well be worth it. Otherwise, they make nice decorations for mantle pieces…

I think these are very valid points. As the case with the Comanche at St. Johns shows it can take some time, yet he is in a place where there is good maintenance and help available. So once an engine has been sourced, the engine change should be quite straightforward. Again, the fact that the airplane is located at ZRH which is a cargo hub with all facilities for customs and transit paperwork may be an advantage.

LSZH(work) LSZF (GA base), Switzerland

What bothers me here is what can cause such a catastrophic destruction of an engine.

What is the engine type anyway? Is this a turbocharged engine? I reckon it will be very interesting to have the engine post-mortem-ed (if that is a word…) to find out what actually caused this. I’ve never seen a destruction like this.

LSZH(work) LSZF (GA base), Switzerland
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