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Does clearance to enter CAS extend to any CAS which adjoins it further down the route?

Peter wrote:

Yeah, but we all know that phrase – probably old as IFR itself – means nothing if any of the flight is OCAS

It means a whole lot even if the flight is in OCAS — most everywhere except in the UK.

ESKC (Uppsala/Sundbro), Sweden

Peter, I think whoever you spoke to in Southampton is wrong.

I am sure he correctly described who owns what airspace, but I am sure that an infringement in the circumstances described (basically “loss of comms” and entering the LTMA at FL065) would not have been prosecutable IF the pilot got himself a decent lawyer. If Gatwick filed an MOR (remember the policy in the UK is now 100% MOR filing on the slightest infringement) then that kicks off the process, whose course would depend to some extent on what the pilot puts in his MOR response. If he puts in that he intended to descend 5300ft but could not get the radio call in, etc, then nobody in the CAA with a brain would try it on (but you never know because in general ATC is never wrong). Obviously a recording of the radio would be massively helpful because in the UK an accused pilot gets no access to ATC audio; only the CAA gets this (until court, of course). And as I posted earlier I got a version of this situation in Italy.

I have never flown in the UK but I have seen many threads with this claim that an IFR clearance needs to be reissued when you pass through airspace that is not controlled. I am very interested in seeing a source supporting this or clear explanation why this is.

It is the way UK ATC is set up. If you leave CAS, your IFR clearance terminates and a new one has to be negotiated before you can re-enter it. IF you are an “obvious IFR flight” (e.g. FL150 and on a Eurocontrol FP) then they keep an eye on it and usually they do it in time so no CAS bust takes place (sometimes just in time, like on the return leg of this) but if you are doing it at some lower level e.g. FL070 then the system is likely to just break down because they expected you to avoid CAS re-entry by descent. Especially if you are near your destination, in which case you get a “cleared to leave CAS by descent” and there is some ambiguity about whether briefly re-entering it during the descent is a bust (I’ve had different answers on that from London Control). Proper commercial traffic flying at relatively low levels (e.g. the twin commuter turboprops doing the islands) solves this by flying at FL200 which is Class C everywhere.

It means a whole lot even if the flight is in OCAS — most everywhere except in the UK.

Not at all sure about that.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Airborne_Again wrote:

Peter wrote:
Yeah, but we all know that phrase – probably old as IFR itself – means nothing if any of the flight is OCAS

It means a whole lot even if the flight is in OCAS — most everywhere except in the UK.

NVFR for instance. Even when flying OCAS, the a requirement is two way radio and contact with ATC (if possible), and a full FP if leaving the “vicinity” of a local airport. The reason is that with NVFR the conditions are such that you may have to enter CAS at any time. You may also be “controlled”, requested to fly along certain routes, altitudes or directions due to other traffic.

SERA only say that clearance is not required in G.

The elephant is the circulation
ENVA ENOP ENMO, Norway

LeSving wrote:

The reason is that with NVFR the conditions are such that you may have to enter CAS at any time. You may also be “controlled”, requested to fly along certain routes, altitudes or directions due to other traffic.

Not quite. The reason is entirely historic, and a nod to the countries which prohibited Night VFR and needed this because, obviously, “there must be rules”.

There are NO such rules for night flying in the US, and in the UK, for example, one could fly night-VFR (which was called IFR, but that was a technicality) without any of this BS.

Biggin Hill

Cobalt wrote:

The reason is entirely historic

Well, then you don’t know all of history The basic standard from ICAO was up until 1991 that VFR night was not allowed. All flying during darkness should be done IFR. IFR itself was developed from NVFR, originally using light beacons. Later, light was replaced with radio beacons, a much better solution, and so ICAO decided night flying was only to be done using this “new” technology (IFR or VFR, no such distinction back then). Later still, IFR was “invented” as separate flight rules.

In Norway, as with many other places, NVFR has always been allowed. However, “see and be seen” doesn’t quite work in darkness. You can see light OK, but judging distances to other planes is impossible. So, to fly NVFR in controlled airspace, it was deemed necessary to separate all flights in the same manner as IFR. In Norway this lead to a situation where NVFR was allowed, but to fly NVR in controlled airspace required PPR. PPR for each and every controlled airspace. At the same time helicopters were flying NVFR all the time, and special routes were made OCAS for flying between cities, cities/airports in/out od controlled airspace, and with two way radio (ground communication). This BS was requested by professional helicopter pilots btw

With SERA, the rules din’t change much, but the blanket PPR for NVFR in controlled airspace disappeared. Along came some impossible alt limits, but they are changed now. Today, with SERA (modded), NVFR is exactly like VFR day, only two way radio is a requirement and a full FP when leaving the vicinity of an airport.

The elephant is the circulation
ENVA ENOP ENMO, Norway

LeSving wrote:

However, “see and be seen” doesn’t quite work in darkness. You can see light OK, but judging distances to other planes is impossible.

I find it far, far easier to spot another plane’s lights in darkness than the same plane in broad daylight against a perfectly blue sky (or the white of faire weather clouds).

ELLX

Peter wrote:

It is the way UK ATC is set up. If you leave CAS, your IFR clearance terminates and a new one has to be negotiated before you can re-enter it. IF you are an “obvious IFR flight” (e.g. FL150 and on a Eurocontrol FP) then they keep an eye on it and usually they do it in time so no CAS bust takes place (sometimes just in time, like on the return leg of this) but if you are doing it at some lower level e.g. FL070 then the system is likely to just break down because they expected you to avoid CAS re-entry by descent. Especially if you are near your destination, in which case you get a “cleared to leave CAS by descent” and there is some ambiguity about whether briefly re-entering it during the descent is a bust (I’ve had different answers on that from London Control). Proper commercial traffic flying at relatively low levels (e.g. the twin commuter turboprops doing the islands) solves this by flying at FL200 which is Class C everywhere.

That’s a good argument for continental IR pilots (non-turbo GA aircraft) to NOT fly IFR in the UK. The chance of an airspace violation is very high, and one never knows whether one has an active IFR flight plan or not.

My expectation is that if I am on an IFR clearance (i.e. flying by Instrument Flight Rules), then airspace is no longer a factor. I am flying on an ATC clearance. That is one of the big advantages of filing IFR. Trip planning is so much simplified since without any consideration of airspace. Whenever I’ve filed Z or Y flights, I’ve received a clearance from ATC including “IFR starts/ends now” or “IFR starts/ends passing x’000ft”, so one always know if one is flying by IFR or VFR.

LSZK, Switzerland

Peter wrote:

It is the way UK ATC is set up. If you leave CAS, your IFR clearance terminates and a new one has to be negotiated before you can re-enter it.

Do you not receive a route clearance when opening an IFR flight plan? If you do then please let me know where in the AIP it says that that clearance is terminated when passing through uncontrolled airspace. I have been looking in the AIP and see nothing that indicates that.

Peter wrote:

IF you are an “obvious IFR flight” (e.g. FL150 and on a Eurocontrol FP) then they keep an eye on it and usually they do it in time so no CAS bust takes place

What would a non-obvious IFR flight be? If I’ve filed IFR, opened my flight plan, and received a clearance it should be obvious to the controller that I am IFR. I would hope they keep an eye on it because coordination is their job not mine.

Sweden

I have been on a GA IFR flight where my clearance allowed me to leave CAS and re join. It’s one of the airways north of Manchester IIRC. But there was a clearance to leave and re join.

To leave CAS you need a clearance and it is only when radar is terminated (usually traffic service OCAS) and you are asked to free call that you leave the system. But you are still IFR just OCAS.

I am surprised Solent would allow an airways aircraft enter another sector without co ordination. They would have to ‘break the contract’ and give clearance to leave CAS and then terminate their service.

Oxford (EGTK), United Kingdom

What would a non-obvious IFR flight be?

EGKA-EGMD IFR at 3000ft

It validated via IFPS, too… No clearance whatever on that flight.

Or EGKA-EGMD at 6000ft, which is in CAS but London Control will chuck it out, so you will (almost) never get an IFR clearance into the 5500ft-base Class A.

I have been looking in the AIP and see nothing that indicates that.

I don’t think any of this is in the AIP e.g. the way you need to negotiate – in most GA cases – a fresh IFR clearance with ATC which owns each new piece of CAS.

That’s a good argument for continental IR pilots (non-turbo GA aircraft) to NOT fly IFR in the UK. The chance of an airspace violation is very high, and one never knows whether one has an active IFR flight plan or not.
My expectation is that if I am on an IFR clearance (i.e. flying by Instrument Flight Rules), then airspace is no longer a factor. I am flying on an ATC clearance. That is one of the big advantages of filing IFR.

Of course.

But, the real issue in all this is if any part of your flight is OCAS. You get problems with this anywhere, not just the UK. A pilot needs to be CAS aware if any part of his flight is OCAS. In the US this is not a huge issue because in general they have Class E down to 1200ft or whatever, and that means IFR traffic is automatically in CAS for most of any flight. In Europe this often breaks down. You just have to know the airspace structure if dropping out of CAS or if doing flights on Z or Y flight plans, and this is true more or less everywhere in Europe (except, no doubt, Norway and Sweden ).

However, we are now well off the topic and it really belongs here, and other threads.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom
90 Posts
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