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IFR procedure at Samedan LSZS

LSZS finally came up with a permanent IFR procedure apparently starting 5th December 2019:

http://www.engadin-airport.ch/fileadmin/user_upload/SMV__PILOT__BRIEFING_V5.0.pdf local copy

That is a huge step and will hopefully prevent lots of illegal VFR in IMC jet flying I have seen there over the years. An interesting detail is that apparently the PIC is supposed to apply temperature correction to the altitude values on his/her own, which I have not seen for other IFR procedures yet.

Also there is a new note saying “(Introduction flight with FI can be done after first landing at LSZS)”. I have no idea what this means. Can you do a single landing there to pick up the instructor?

Then they did also modify the requirements for Cat B and higher, you can now do the first landing with FEW clouds. Before it was CAVOK only.

www.ing-golze.de
EDAZ

Sebastian_G wrote:

An interesting detail is that apparently the PIC is supposed to apply temperature correction to the altitude values on his/her own, which I have not seen for other IFR procedures yet.

I was taught that this always applies to every IFR procedure… I would think the mention of it is simply a reminder as it is particularly important at this airport,

Last Edited by Airborne_Again at 02 Dec 10:38
ESKC (Uppsala/Sundbro), Sweden

The question is how much will it really do with the very high minima. 11400 ft is almost 5000 ft over the airport height for runway 03, it is better for 21 but still some 3000 ft over airport elevation if I understand it correctly, at Maloya and Zernez you need to be visual. It certainly is an improvement but we have to see if it is decisive in terms of biz jets trying to get their high profile alpha passengers into there safely.

LSZH(work) LSZF (GA base), Switzerland

Mooney_Driver wrote:

It certainly is an improvement but we have to see if it is decisive in terms of biz jets trying to get their high profile alpha passengers into there safely.

I agree but it also helps the crews a lot. Flying to a known legal IFR minimum is a different story than telling your boss “I was VFR in and out of clouds and at some point I no longer felt comfortable”.

Airborne_Again wrote:

I was taught that this always applies to every IFR procedure

I am not an IFR instructor but if the chart or the controllers say X feet I am supposed to fly X feet on the given QNH exactly? At my homebase EDAZ there is a turn at exactly 2000ft in the IFR procedure (for airspace reasons) and I don’t think we allowed to add any temperature correction. In Germany there are sometimes small remarks that certain procedures are not usable below -15C or -20C.

www.ing-golze.de
EDAZ

Sebastian_G wrote:

I am not an IFR instructor but if the chart or the controllers say X feet I am supposed to fly X feet on the given QNH exactly? At my homebase EDAZ there is a turn at exactly 2000ft in the IFR procedure (for airspace reasons) and I don’t think we allowed to add any temperature correction.

The corrections are only needed for obstacle clearance purposes – not airspace. Both the (M)DA and stepdown fix altitudes of IAPs should be temperature corrected.

If the controllers say fly X feet and X is at or close to the (obstacle-determined) minimum IFR altitude, then you should apply temperature correction to the minimum altitude and reject the clearance if the cleared altitude is below the corrected minimum altitude. Remember that if you’re on a published route (such as a STAR or IAP) then you and not the controller is responsible for obstacle clearance. If you’re vectored, then the controller should apply temperature compensation, as required. (And I know from experience that they do.)

In Germany there are sometimes small remarks that certain procedures are not usable below -15C or -20C.

That’s for Baro-VNAV procedures where the glideslope angle varies with temperature.

ESKC (Uppsala/Sundbro), Sweden

Correction is applied only for some procedures, e.g. LNAV but not for others e.g. ILS, LNAV/VNAV, LPV. Other conditions can also negate the need of correction e.g. if (mentioned above) or if company procedure does not require them (e.g. we don’t apply them up to 15°C below ISA, i.e. in Zurich only under -3°C).

LSZH, LSZF, Switzerland

Vladimir wrote:

Correction is applied only for some procedures, e.g. LNAV but not for others e.g. ILS, LNAV/VNAV, LPV.

PANS-OPS says you should always apply temperature correction to minimum altitudes, unless the effect is less than about 20% of the minimum obstacle clearance. Why not for an ILS? If the airport is at a typical European altitude, the DH is 200 ft and the temperature –20°, then you’ll actually be at about 170 ft when the altimeter says you’re at the DH. Not a good idea IMHO.

Last Edited by Airborne_Again at 02 Dec 17:33
ESKC (Uppsala/Sundbro), Sweden

The altitude check over the OM would be off as well…

EBST, Belgium

Sebastian_G wrote:

will hopefully prevent lots of illegal VFR in IMC jet flying I have seen there over the years.

Flying illegally is a mindset not a behavior. As much I I hope you will be right, I doubt it. Pilots who have the mindest of breaking the rules (and the laws) because they believe they are more clever and better pilots than those stupid people who have to stick to the law will not change their behavior because there is a new option… Sad thing, but fortunately most of the pilots do not risk their and their passengers lives by doing stupid things like VFR in VMC…

Sebastian_G wrote:

Also there is a new note saying “(Introduction flight with FI can be done after first landing at LSZS)”. I have no idea what this means. Can you do a single landing there to pick up the instructor?

This is how I would read it – and this is actually a huge improvement: Before that change, the most experienced FIs for intro (i.e. those who are based in LSZS) first had to rent a plane to get to somewhere to meet the pilot, then do the intro, head back to where they met and get back to LSZS. Huge waste of time and resources…

Germany

now, this makes it worthwhile updating my GTN IFR database!

United Kingdom
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