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Any way to fly a TB20 EGKA-EGHE with a real ATC clearance for the whole route?

In other words, in the IFR system, and with the ability to avoid wx without getting busted by the CAA.

It appears obviously impossible in the UK system, below FL200 which is the Class C base (FL195).

The twin turboprops which fly down there do it at FL200, according to one London Control ATCO I spoke to a few years ago.

Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

You could route via Jersey Zone Bit of a Navex and a massive overhead, but no problem for range in a TB20…

Last Edited by Pilot-H at 22 Jul 18:08

The Q is really for those familiar with the UK ATC system.

For those not familiar, and many “foreign” pilots have discovered this to their horror when airborne, once you enter Class G, your IFR clearance is terminated and there is no assurance of regaining it for the next bit of CAS.

On the above specific route, you can get into CAS for SAM (but not always; you can file for say FL100 but Solent may keep you down to FL050 over SAM, and then leave you hanging there as you leave CAS west of SAM) but then you will have a bit of Class G, and then you need to cross the FL065-base CAS at the midpoint of the route, which sometimes works but sometimes not (London Control handle that bit and, IME, Exeter, which handles traffic there, often cannot get through on the phone).

It is really a very old problem but I wonder if there are any “system” changes.

Sure, a +50% dogleg will work…

Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

The answer is „of course not“. It‘s simply in the airspace structure. I like to refer people to ENR 6 of the UK AIP, which is as public as can be:

This shows that there are no lower airways in the southwest of England, with the exception of the north/south ones between the CI and Cardiff. And where there are no airways, by default, it is all class Golf in UK lower airspace.

Last Edited by boscomantico at 22 Jul 19:13
Mainz (EDFZ) & Egelsbach (EDFE), Germany

It obviously can’t be flown wholly in CAS, because there isn’t continuous CAS there.

The Q therefore is: can it be flown at say FL100-150 while being sure of getting through the CAS found along the route. I don’t think you can be sure. You could be refused entry. So, is there some way to make sure that doesn’t happen? It is basically a London Control issue, because they control all the CAS there, above FL070 over Solent – see this – and above FL065 near Exeter.

In Scotland you can be sure, AFAIK.

Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

With the Autorouter, all for FL100:

This is the standard result, which incidentally busts D036 (due to due to this old problem with the UK not notifying IFPS of the restrictions) so London Control won’t give it to you anyway on the day

This uses a VFR segment in the 2nd half, but would result in a CAA danger area bust (D012) most of the time, and since the bust is on a VFR segment, everybody in the system will wash their hands of it

Astonishingly, this one validates, though it busts various danger areas (comments as above) and even though the whole route is IFR I can’t see how you would get a service at FL100 all the way, and if you did they would never let you fly through the DAs. It is also bad risk management to fly so far over water, pointlessly.

so I edited it manually to my usual VFR route N0152F100 DCT GWC DCT SAM DCT TINAN DCT LND and got a “valid” result

Note it does not validate at FL110.

Who wants to put money in a hat on what would happen on this flight? It avoids all DAs, which is a start. I am also fairly sure the first bit (up to and past SAM) will work because years ago I flew to EGJJ that way (SAM ORTAC etc FL100). The key is to talk to London Control ASAP, not Solent who will try to push you down to ~5000ft and then you are trapped low for the rest of the flight. It would be a test of ATC coordination when you are approaching the FL065+ Exeter airspace (TINAN).

Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Hi @Peter, are you going to try it?
It would be interesting…


As far as I know it is ok to cut on SVFR on top of Exeter from the south between FL65 & FL85 just above TINAN, Exeter do give that clearance and seems to own that bit of airspace, not sure about FL100…

Last Edited by Ibra at 27 Jul 11:21
Paris/Essex, France/UK, United Kingdom

How can they do SVFR? It is Class A

are you going to try it?

Next time I go there, yes, if the conditions are fine if it doesn’t work.

Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

SVFR is only available in a CTR.
It can be a class A, but it must be a CTR.

EIWT Weston, Ireland
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