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Any way to fly a TB20 EGKA-EGHE with a real ATC clearance for the whole route?

dublinpilot wrote:

SVFR is only available in a CTR.
It can be a class A, but it must be a CTR

No idea how it worked back then (2017) but asking for SVFR in TMG to cross and it was granted by Exeter ATC
Maybe I should not have asked , anyway I would not try it today…

Paris/Essex, France/UK, United Kingdom

“Danger area bust”

That is a new one for me. Does the UK also go after pilots who fly into danger areas? As far as I know no permission or clearance is required to fly into one.

ESME, ESMS

Of course they do – official CAA website. They weren’t going to publish this but were forced under FOIA to respond to multiple requests and decided it was too much work… This is why one has to be careful with VFR segments on Eurocontrol routes; if you are on a Basic Service (ICAO FIS) you won’t likely get a warning.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Based on what regulation do they do that?

Also I wonder how they caught the single incident of “TMZ bust” in February.

Last Edited by Dimme at 27 Jul 13:01
ESME, ESMS

Thread here.

Because of the OCAS segments on the above route, I would do a narrow route briefing (on the NATS website) before flying it; something one never needs to do on a Eurocontrol flight planned flight. That will pick up any RAs, active DAs, etc. I would not use the notam briefing from any app because the data is promulgated in a non machine readable format.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Dimme wrote:

Based on what regulation do they do that?

None it was mostly about being good character not to endanger own existence but…

There are some DA that are actually Prohibited Areas to fly in when they are ACTIVE, the legal basis for these has nothing to do with the rules of the air or AIP entries, some fall under criminal law and buried in deep legislations texts that no one has a clue wen they talk about (even when they look like they understand them using legal jargon ), I am sure any foreign pilot will mess these while local pilots are simply told not go there under any hot/cold state (e.g. I was told Dragons & Sirens lives there)

There is a move for UK regulator to extend this treatment to any “DA entry”, for practical purpose this will make any DA without Radar Service (e.g. in controlled A/D airspace) a mine field to fly into on Basic Service with your transponder showing 7000, 2000, 1177… irrespective who you talk to on RT, instead of getting some nice 3XXX, 4XXX or 5XXX from ATC…

Last Edited by Ibra at 27 Jul 13:19
Paris/Essex, France/UK, United Kingdom

Yes – again in the same thread. Simplest thing is to assume all DAs in the UK are “hot”.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

I have flown several times recently between Gloucester area and Newquay. On one occasion I filed VFR departure, joining IFR FL140 near Cardiff and that worked fine. Once I had left controlled airspace in N Devon to head SW across the remaining 80 NM of class G all I got from ATC was “basic service”. I was not notified that I was leaving controlled airspace or that my IFR plan had been cancelled or anything. The next time I didn’t file anything and approaching Cardiff asked for transit, and once the controller established that I had “Instrument capability” he routed me through controlled, including Class A airspace. It just seems that if things arent too busy the controllers will be accommodating but leave it unsaid what your exact status is. I guess this is compounded by the welcome privilege we have here of being able to fly IFR in IMC without flight plans and in uncontrolled

This is all strange to me as I am used to flying in the continent where it is made v abundantly when you are or are not IFR. For example leaving Switzerland from Lake Geneva area it is strictly “maintain VMC until FL70 inbound SPR VOR” (FL70 being the floor of controlled airspace) and the instant you hit FL70 ATC says “IFR starts now, climb 180 etc”. Likewise flying into Lake Geneva area ATC will ask me to nominate when I want to “cancel IFR” and once I do so they read back “IFR cancelled, time 14.27 UTC”. So it is very very clear.

Upper Harford private strip UK, near EGBJ, United Kingdom

It is not that dissimilar in the UK, except the magic words are “Radar Control Service”, or “Radar service terminated, [basic service, freecall enroute or whatever]” instead of “IFR starts at”… and “IFR cancelled at”; for exactly the reason you say – the pilot is free to continue under IFR or VFR after leaving controlled airspace.

@Peter,

I can also echo Buckerfan’s experience – when I flew similar routes (Perranporth / St. Mawgan) I was able to negotiate the airway crossing; but it took some effort; in one instance I asked to remain on frequency for later re-join and I was handed over to the down-route controller; in another instance, it involved some faff to figure out the right frequency and ask for transit from a surprised controller; same as happened to @Buckerfan. But in both instances transit was granted; the main issue remains that without assurance of clearance, a plan B needs to be available, which in VMC is easy, but in IMC with icing mat be tricky.

Biggin Hill

My experiences of a similar route between North Weald and Newquay is that the outbound leg filed IFR >FL100 results in a quick climb into CAS talking to London and Bristol. Flight remains in CAS until you exit the north-south airway near Minehead, then it’s a ATSOCAS with Western Radar until reaching Newquay.

The return journey filed at FL90 via SAM is a fudge. There is no traditional “clearance”, instead Newquay says climb to filed flight level, on track [first waypoint in flightplan] and to contact Western Radar to transit the north-south airway. You then pop out the eastern boundary of the airway into class G and so need to be recleared into Solent’s CAS, at which point they route you north and instruct you to leave CAS by descent. Solent normally says London is too busy to accept the flight. Once (possibly at FL120 or FL130) I have been given a Stansted STAR.

This issue only presents itself arriving from the west of the UK where there is no lower airways network, and the first part of the flight is OCAS for an extended time.

Otherwise I find ATC is happy to keep you (just) in Class A until BPK or LAM

FI/IRI (London/South East)
EGKB (Biggin Hill), United Kingdom
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