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PA-34-200T T7-RAR Seneca II down into the Bodensee lake in low vis

ASN shows there is a previous
on this one.

METAR LSZR 181150Z AUTO VRB03KT 3100 R10/0600U BR BKN001 03/03 Q1018=
METAR LSZR 181120Z AUTO VRB02KT 5000 FEW001 03/03 Q1018=
METAR LSZR 181050Z AUTO VRB02KT 2000 R10/0400U BR SCT001 02/02 Q1018=
METAR LSZR 181020Z 28005KT 240V310 0300 R10/0250U FG VV002

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Sad story but the pilot survived.
weather was well below minima for either ILS or LPV (DH 500ft vs BKN001) although BKN means you may try it.
Looking at FR24 shows that he was on the localizer (sorry for the previous mis calculation) , 5nm final on a 4° slope makes 2000ft agl that is 3300ft QNH without baro compensation, roughly 150ft…

Last Edited by greg_mp at 19 Feb 08:59
LFMD, France

Amazing that the pilot survived. He left the aircraft without help and was in the water for 45 minutes before being picked up.

The previous incident in 2006 was a result of total electrical failure. Apparently the aircraft was in poor technical condition at the time.

ESKC (Uppsala/Sundbro), Sweden

Puzzled how one can walk away from that

greg_mp wrote:

although BKN means you may try it

I think BKN did come later in the METAR after the crash, it was FEW & SCT before?

Ceiling cut is 4 oktas, so one can try at FEW, SCT as in early METAR but it all depends on where the runway is vs clouds
However, one still need decent visbility, being out of OVC or FEW clouds at 3000ft agl with 1km visbility is same thing
Legally it’s RVR at 1000ft that matters

Anyway, “VV002” for me means run away without Radar Altimeter

Nearby, Dornbirn & Friedrichshafen are IFR and “high in-land” at 1300ft agl that would have been CAVOK on top of the fog blanket?
Sitterdorf LSZV while VFR only would have been CAVOK as he passed abeam but maybe not for twins…

This was EDNY, super CAVOK above the fog
METAR EDNY 181120Z VRB01KT CAVOK 07/02 Q1018=
METAR EDNY 181050Z 24004KT 210V270 CAVOK 04/02 Q1018=
METAR EDNY 181020Z VRB02KT CAVOK 05/01 Q1018=
METAR EDNY 180950Z VRB01KT CAVOK 03/01 Q1018=
METAR EDNY 180920Z VRB02KT CAVOK 02/01 Q1018=

Last Edited by Ibra at 19 Feb 10:26
ESSEX, United Kingdom

greg_mp wrote:

weather was well below minima for either ILS or LPV (DH 500ft vs BKN001) although BKN means you may try it.

I didn’t know that the cloud base is a factor in deciding wether one can approach or not. Thought it was RVR.

EPPO, EPPK

You can always attempt it, in any cloudbase.

Only RVR (if RVR is being reported) is limiting and that is only at the FAF. If it gets worse after the FAF, you can continue.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Of course it’s not a deciding factor, but weather was a parameter to coop with because conditions weren’t good and changing.
We can only assume that conditions were over what the pilots considers as “its minima”.
METAR LSZR 181150Z AUTO VRB03KT 3100 R10/0600U BR BKN001 03/03 Q1018=
METAR LSZR 181120Z AUTO VRB02KT 5000 FEW001 03/03 Q1018=

Legally it’s RVR at 1000ft that matters

The last RVR reported before he cross the 1000ft marker, yes

Last Edited by greg_mp at 19 Feb 10:37
LFMD, France

Peter wrote:

Only RVR (if RVR is being reported) is limiting and that is only at the FAF. If it gets worse after the FAF, you can continue.

Actually, not to put too fine a point on it :), it’s based on height above the airfield. If RVR drops below minimum when you’re below 1000 ft AGL, you may continue the approach. Above 1000 ft, you may continue to DA/MDA.

The FAF only becomes relevant here if the DA/MDA are above 1000 AGL.

Last Edited by Alpha_Floor at 19 Feb 11:09
EGBE, LEJR, United Kingdom

Of course you can always try down to DH minima if no RVR approach ban but I think lot of pilots divert as soon as they hear OVC001 or FOG or VV001, usually by keeping flying VMC on top untill they will run out of fuel

If visibility is +10km the DH 2nm north of that ILS track over the lake, is ahem 0ft*
*It’s Switzerland lake (+1000ft amsl) not an open sea…

Last Edited by Ibra at 19 Feb 12:52
ESSEX, United Kingdom

yeah, not too fine but finer again, it’s not the RVR but the “reported RVR”, just giving a sense to “sorry say again” :P.

LFMD, France
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