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Summary of actual VFR/IFR GA flying procedures per country?

You can have “fun” in Swiss Class C – see here around 11:20

And then, on a better day, you can get the real business.

These are all great learning experiences, but difficult to formalise into a useful form. For example how could I possibly plan the VFR section shown in the video, to be approved by ATC, after a 3hr flight with an ETA plus or minus half an hour? Not possible; IFR is the only way (FL160+).

What do you mean by “absolutely tightly” here?

A transit at a given level and on a given track, only, no deviations. That is the UK norm, and obviously I am talking about Class D, since (almost wholly) the only other CAS there (below FL200 i.e. of piston relevance) is Class A which is closed to VFR.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Frans wrote:

That surprices me a lot! Since you’re flying in Norway, you have a lot of more experience than me, but I cannot say anything negative towards Polaris (former Norway Control), they sended me over to the next TMA on my few flights inside Norway nicely

I know. Some do, some don’t, and that’s the tricky part. One can handle you over just fine, another one say nothing. Also, Polaris has many frequencies according to where you are. I asked the CAA about this. They called me back and told me how it was. For VFR flights, the PIC must handle all this himself. The ATC (Polaris as is often the case in these circumstances) has no obligation to tell you when to switch. However, a lot of them do it nevertheless just to be nice. He also told me about foreigners who had remained on a Polaris frequency way south when flying north. Polaris trying to contact them, but no answer. These Polaris frequencies are only found deep down in the AIP AFAIK. The only easy access I have found is SkyDemon.

The elephant is the circulation
ENVA ENOP ENMO, Norway

@Ibra as I have written before IFR in class G in France is possible, providing that one is above 3000 ft and in 2 way communication with an ATS.
It also needs a flight plan. However an FPL can be filed in the air, I think its with10 minutes notice to the commencement of the IFR.
A pop up flight plan is possible depending on the ATS, usually granted if you eg run into deteriorating weather on an VFR flight and want to use the an IAP.

Take off from an uncontrolled airfield (which would usually be class G) requires the appropriate VFR minima until you get your IFR clearance or if OCAS your ATS contact, usually also a squawk and radar identified.
Landing at an uncontrolled field, IFR, eg a GNSS approach requires at least a QNH which you get from the nearest ATS (usually an approach controller). You then simply follow the IAP ( auto announcing) but you must also do a circle to land.
The main differences between France an UK is that in class G in the UK you don’t need to talk to anyone.
I think to make an IAP approach in the UK needs an ATS service on the field, but I may be wrong about that.

France

gallois wrote:

I think to make an IAP approach in the UK needs an ATS service on the field, but I may be wrong about that

Yes to fly a published IAP in UK you need clearance from “instrument ATC” (there are “visual ATC”, “instrument procedural rated ATC” and “instrument radar rated ATC”)

This has changed recently where one can fly IAP with FISO/AFIS in few new RNP IAP proposals, altough the whole thing is still a piece of theatre in the making as there are no clearances or services but rather some PPR slot bookings, 6 per day I think, if anyone really understands that setup very well or has flown say Sywell RNP can tell us exactly what type of IFR service they got: Basic Service? Approach Service? Procedural Service? or Deconfliction Service?

In UK however, one can fly non-published IAP straight-in up to ATZ bounday (or published minima if some IAP exist for the runway), without talking to anyone if they wish, but one needs to comply with FISO & AG ATZ penetration rules (e.g. radio calls, overhead joins, noise abbatement…)

Last Edited by Ibra at 07 Apr 15:10
Paris/Essex, France/UK, United Kingdom

Alpha_Floor wrote:

In Spain (and Croatia), when VFR and in radio contact with air traffic control, the airspace class you are in seems to be irrelevant, they will often provide you with instructions and separation, even VFR in Class E. If you behave like IFR (constant altitude and heading) they will treat you as such. It’s a case of “if it has feathers like a duck and quaks like a duck, then it must be a duck!”

After many years of flying in Spain, that’s also my experience. Especially if you route via IFR waypoints – then ATC essentially treats you like IFR traffic. They sometimes seem to check you out by giving you a ‘direct XYZ VOR’ or a waypoint. If you then read that back correctly and fly there, you’ve got a friend in ATC ;-))

LeSving wrote:

I know. Some do, some don’t, and that’s the tricky part. (…) These Polaris frequencies are only found deep down in the AIP AFAIK. The only easy access I have found is SkyDemon.
Thanks for the information, that makes the situation in Norway a lot clearer! Yes, I have SkyDemon and saw those many different Polaris sectors. Next time, I will pay a little bit more attention towards the moving map, as I relied myself maybe too much on ATC handovers. It worked out very well so far, but as you said, the VFR-pilot remains in the end responsible for all airspace penetrations. Do you know actually if Norwegian CAA is very hard on pilots how bust a bit of CAS? Is there a zero tolerance regime or are minimum airspace infringements more or less tolerated (at least when in contact with Polaris)?
Last Edited by Frans at 07 Apr 17:08
Switzerland

Alpha_Floor wrote:

Regarding Special VFR:

Special VFR in Class A is possible in the UK apparently (if somebody could confirm this)

My hazy recollection is that this was a UK exemption that was only possible before SERA. I think this was the reason that the Heathrow CTR (and presumably some other ones too) was changed from Class A to Class D at the time that SERA came into force. I think they chose Class D so as to allow in VFR with less onerous separation than would have been required under B or C.

Derek
Stapleford (EGSG), Denham (EGLD)

derek wrote:

My hazy recollection is that this was a UK exemption that was only possible before SERA. I think this was the reason that the Heathrow CTR (and presumably some other ones too) was changed from Class A to Class D at the time that SERA came into force. I think they chose Class D so as to allow in VFR with less onerous separation than would have been required under B or C.

Yes, that’s what I have been told by a NATS ATCO.

In the UK whether it’s A or D seems to be irrelevant as a matter of fact. They are going to treat all traffic in exactly the same way.
B is not used and C and D are pretty much treated the same way in my experience.

There are four types of airspace in the UK, in practical terms:

  • CTAs – where you can only fly with a clearance AND a Eurocontrol FPL (mostly class A, this is what folks call “the airways”)
  • CTRs – where you need a clearance but no FPL* (mostly class D)
  • ATZs – radio communication required, no clearance and no FPL (mostly class G)
  • The rest of OCAS – no radio, no clearance, no FPL

The flight rules and the class of airspace are irrelevant in practice. Of course you need to be IFR to fly in Class A but don’t expect anything just because you are IFR.

*I know the “pass your details” thing constitutes an abbreviated FPL, but you get what I mean.

Last Edited by Alpha_Floor at 08 Apr 15:06
EDDW, Germany

The PPL training establishment drills into UK pilots that the ATC request to “pass your message” or “pass your details” must always be replied to with a full-and-proper statement of everything delivered in a particular format – reg/type/departure/destination/persons on board/flight rules/route/position/altitude/estimate for next waypoint – popularly known as giving your ‘life story’ or ‘inside leg measurement’.

This is not strictly true. All the ATCO is really saying is that he or she is ready and listening. Like a French ATCO saying “j’ecoute”.

Depending on the context, you quite probably don’t need to give all (or even much) of this information. For example, any radar unit will not be interested in your estimate for your next waypoint so this is almost completely superfluous. They also don’t care about details of your route outside of their area, so if you’re working Farnborough Radar on a flight from Shoreham to Blackpool then all they’re interested in route-wise is how you’ll be departing their area – your plans for negotiating the Manchester CTR are superfluous. No unit cares about persons on board unless you’re heading out over the sea, when they sometimes ask – but infrequently enough that its not worth volunteering it. Similarly the ATSU of the destination airport, whether Approach/Radar or Tower, does not usually care where you’ve come from or what your route was – the word ‘inbound’ and your position is enough.

UK frequencies with a lot of GA on them have a reputation for being very cluttered and it being difficult to get a word in edgeways, and this causes ATC to be very defensive about how much traffic they can deal with at once.

Most of this could be solved easily if GA pilots stopped automatically passing lots of superfluous information because they believe they must (or should) reply to the magic words “pass your message” using a particular format.

Less is more, I feel.

EGLM & EGTN

Graham wrote:

Less is more, I feel.

While I agree with you, every time I have been asked to “give my life story”, if I did forget to say just one of those items they would ask it: “G-ABCD, confirm your aircraft type” or “confirm your point of departure” or whatever.

POB is not required, I never say it unless they ask. It’s usually only the airfield AFISOs who ask for POB.

One thing I find interesting is that the PPL life story thing doesn’t teach you to say whether you are VFR or IFR, and controllers don’t ask either. This is telling isn’t it? They couldn’t care less whether you are IFR or VFR. I say it anyway for the record.

Graham wrote:

UK frequencies with a lot of GA on them have a reputation for being very cluttered

They are because everybody is waiting in line to give them a life story. And it suffers from TMI (too much information). The response to that life story is usually always “Roger, basic service, QNH 1013”. And that’s that. I think this is all a pointless exercise. But when I try to give them an “abbreviated” life story, they keep asking for details regardless. I guess they have a strip or template that they need to fill in.

The whole thing is extremely funny to foreign pilots. I have had friends fly with me in the UK who tell me “dude, what the hell are you doing telling the guy all that?” “that’s the way they like it here believe it or not” “what? can’t be right!”.

EDDW, Germany
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